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HELP WITH MAXI BIAB

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Brand new on this board (and brewing BIAB) and already asking for help from this learned forum. For my first ever AG and BIAB (call me crazy) I am doing a Maxi BIAB because my kettle is 8 gallon and would like a full batch of 5.5 Gallon into the fermenter (7.5 Gal SS Brewtech Chronical). The idea (call me crazy again) after reading countless postings is to do a spare or dunking to be able to add the additional wort in steps before and during boiling.

I tried (again first time) the BIABACUS and I am attaching the file I came up with. I would greatly appreciate comments, suggestions and critiques. Planning to do it this weekend. Thanks.
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Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #2 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome to the forum Richard :peace:,

You have done a really nice job on your BIABacus file and what you have done is exactly what I would do to achieve your goals. I'll add a few things/notes/corrections below for you though...

1. We are calling maxi-BIAB, full volume variation brews now as the maxi term often leads to new brewers making some incorrect assumptions.

2. In any full volume variation (any amount added to Section W), there is always a cost when compared to a full volume brew. For example, sparging will not give you more kettle efficiency than if your kettle was big enough to mash with all the water needed for the brew. It simply gives you the same kettle efficiency but at a higher labour and equipment cost/requirement. Any dilutions mean you need more grain to get the same amount of beer. Depending on when the dilution is added, quality can be lowered or raised. Your adding water during the boil is neutral.

As I said above, I think your adjustments are fine as long as you are happy with the extra labour and equipment requirements.

3. Mash for 90 minutes. A 60 minute mash is too fast for many grain bills especially when full-volume BIAB'ing. A 90 minute mash is much safer.

4. In many scenarios, a 60 minute boil is okay but, it is, once again, not the safest practice. AIm for 90 minute boils when you are able to.

Good stuff! Let us know how it goes :peace:,
PP
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Hi PP. Thanks so much for your observations. I greatly appreciate it. I am using the full grain recipe for 5 Gallon in keg. However, my kettle is only 8 gallon, hence, it does not have the capacity for the full mash and boil. What I tried to do is add the sparge (one or two) touring the wort volume up after the mash, and add the additional wort leftover from spare to the boil during the boil to compensate for the lower starting volume.

I could not add pre-boil water because of boil over concerns. I agree it is more labor intensive, but it is a temporary measure until I decide what my next kettle/system purchase is. I will take your suggestion of increasing mash to 90 minutes plus a 10 minutes mash out at 170 F. Do I start the spare after the mash out?

My other alternative would be to just scale down everything to 4 gallon in keg. I had a tough time with BIABACUS trying to scale down. Don't know what I am doing wrong with the scaling down. Do you think that scaling down is a better alternative? Thanks.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #4 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
You can do a two hour boil, BIABacus predicts 8.5 L evaporation at that point. Add your sparge during that first hour, then add your 60 mins. hops.

After the boil, add your 2 L of water. This water should be of good quality and pre-boiled.

MS
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Thank you for the valuable suggestions. Would a 2 hour boil increase tannins? I was planing to add water as the boil progresses to maximize utilization instead of at the end.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #6 made 9 years ago
by mally
rmklaw wrote:Thank you for the valuable suggestions. Would a 2 hour boil increase tannins? I was planing to add water as the boil progresses to maximize utilization instead of at the end.
You typically get tannins from grain material (husk etc.) These should be long gone from the wort by the time you are boiling.
For tannins that remain in the wort from mashing, these are removed by boiling. Have a read of this here.

From practical point of view, boiling should not take less than 90 minutes. The specific length depends on the hop schedule. The minimum time is explained by the following. Sterilization requires about 5 minutes. An additional 10 minutes (total of 15 minutes) will kill the enzymes. Another 15 minutes are needed to eliminate tannin originating from malt husks. This first half hour, in case of infusion mash, is to decompose and precipitate some of the proteins. This should be accomplished before hops are added, because otherwise the sticky hop resins will combine with the coarse protein flocks and precipitate out of solution

It is not good practice to boil for longer than 2 hours either.
Except for high gravity beers, the total boiling time should not last longer than 2 hours

The other interesting fact I read there was;
Boiling the hops longer than one hour will start generating sharp, undesirable and unpleasant flavors

These are all guidelines however, and not set in stone (to me anyhow).
Last edited by mally on 22 Jan 2015, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by mally
It's probably also worth pointing out that utilisation is not so black & white either.

I noticed that you also wrote above that you were planning to add water as the boil progresses. This is a great idea as it maximises quality. It does not however increase utilisation. This idea of higher utilisation of hops with more water comes from some software that has incorrect IBU estimate formulas based on pre-boil gravity rather than the gravity at flame-out.

In fact, it has been more recently discovered that the effect of gravity on hop utilisation is more due to higher gravity beers having more trub which the hop oils cling to. So, if the formulas were re-written better, they would be based on trub/solids not gravity.

Just something to think about. :peace:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
That is a good point GB. The only reason I thought about adding water during the boil was to compensate for the smaller size of the kettle and having to use less water to start with. I figured that it would be better to add leftover wort (from spare) during the boil that after the boil was finished (pre-boiil starts pretty full so there is no room to add at that time).
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #10 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Great advice above you are getting I reckon rmk. I just want to check on your last post...
I figured that it would be better to add leftover wort (from sparge) during the boil that after the boil was finished (pre-boil starts pretty full so there is no room to add at that time).
I've corrected two spelling things. 'Spare' to 'sparge' is the only one worth mentioning - did I get it right?

Mally mentioned quality above and I am a bit worried you might have missed that. Sweet liquor must be boiled to actually turn into wort.

Have a read of the links I just wrote in this post. Most, if not all, of them will be relevant here.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 Jan 2015, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Well. After reading all the posts here and in the other areas, I decided to pull the plug and purchased a SS Brewtech 15 gallon kettle to use with BIAB. No more worries about water volume or boilers. I updated my spreadsheet to reflect the new volume and dimensions and not sparging. Your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #12 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Very short on time so I can't re-read the thread etc, just look at the file...

Section C - Why 1.055 on left and 1.061 on right?

Employ your chiller at 0 minutes as I assume you want flavour and aroma on this beer. Active immediate chilling is the easiest way of achieving that. Maybe change the 18 and 7 min additions to 15 and 1 for a first go and forget the Dry Hops initially as by the look of things, you are kegging which means you can always dry hop the keg if you want. This would give you two possible variations on the same brew which is always a great option to have up your sleeve.
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Hi PistolPatch. Thanks for the comments. The difference in Section C was because (not fully familiar with BIABACUS) I found that by manipulating the OG, it allowed me to match the recipe grain quantities in "original recipe" versus "what you will use" of Section 3. Good suggestion on hop schedule. Thanks.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #14 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
I found the MoreBeer recipe here;
http://www.morebeer.com/products/citra-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... r-kit.html

KIT251 - Citra Pale Ale.pdf
All Grain Brewing.pdf

... and thought I would work on your file some. :)

... and you are adding orange blossom honey.

I scaled the BIABacus so you can by the kit and use it all in addition to the honey.

Nice pot you have.

:peace:

MS
BIABacus PR1.3T Citra Pale Ale 15GalPot -MS.xls
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Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 06 Feb 2015, 04:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #15 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Thank you so much Mad_Scientist. I noticed that your reworked spreadsheet shows larger quantity of grain and also water. Is that due to the scaling up? Got the kit. All I need now to follow your advice is add two pounds of 2-Row. Thanks.
Last edited by rmklaw on 06 Feb 2015, 04:34, edited 1 time in total.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #16 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
It has the same grain weight on both sides.

You are now able to buy the kit as is, and use all of it. :)

I kept the OG from the MoreBeer recipe as is, and scaled it up for you BECAUSE you are now including 1.5 pounds of honey.
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Post #17 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Good catch. I just noticed the discrepancy in mine. I used the included MoreBeer instructions showing only 10# of 2-Row. However, online they now show 12#. They must have revised the recipe. I will go with yours with the larger amounts. Appreciate your help. Plan to do it this weekend. My first BIAB.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #19 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
I also noticed that the "what you will use" hops amounts went up. Should I increase the hop amounts to match this or stick to the MoreBeer recipe? Also, in the "water in fermentor" you have 29 L. I normally use 23 to 24 in fermentor to end up with a full 5 gal Cornelius keg. Should I just use your spreadsheet and just use less initial water? Thanks.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #20 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Good catch on the hop amount increase.

I guess you have a number of options from here.

First you should enter 24 L into your Section B VIF field, that's the max amount you can handle. Keep the OG of 1.055 in Section C too.


From there, do you have access to more hops? and/or do you want a higher OG?

You can play with the 'For this batch though, I'd like to try an OG of' box... in Section C, if higher OG desired...only one scenario (setting) will work for you to use the exact grain weight from your kit... that is an OG of 1.064 ... and if you do that, then the IBU's should be at least a 56 IBU, to keep the same 'Bitterness to Gravity Ratio' of 0.873.

So, decide what you want and reply back.
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Post #22 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
This is the problem Richard with suppliers selling kits with pre-determined quantities. It's a nice idea and will certainly get you within the ball-park of a good/great brew in most scenarios so it's nothing to get our 'knickers in a knot' about. Education-wise, it's a bloody nightmare.

OBVIOUSLY Unless Brewer A and Brewer B have exactly the same equipment and want to achieve exactly the same VAW*, they should never buy the same amount of grain and hops.

I said obviously because most brewers are never told that this is obvious. Their education is always muddied.

* (search and study 'Clear Brewing Terminology' on this site.)

LESS OBVIOUSLY Even if Brewer A and Brewer B want to achieve exactly the same VAW, if they don't have the same equipment, they should only buy the same amount of hops, not the same amount of grain.

This will always be the 'quandary' of buying a pre-measured grain and hop bill.

I won't write any more here because it's important to slow down and really get your head around just this one post. Ask questions on it, anything, until you are sure you understand the above. It is very obvious info but only once it 'clicks'*. Once it does click, you will find this whole recipe/weight/designing/copying arena far more sensible/logical.

:peace:
PP

*There are many reasons why the current home brew environment makes the above hard to 'click' by the time someone gets to all-grain. But, we'll address these later. The most important thing for now, for any reader of this thread, is to ask questions or study until you do jump into this far more accurate paradigm.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Feb 2015, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #23 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Good point pp. Being new and this being my first all grain and BIAB, I will have to experiment and bite the bullet. I am going to use the recipe with Mad_Scientist suggestions, but will keep the hops based on the original, buying additional to dry hop if necessary during fermentation or keg. Thanks.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer

Post #24 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
That sounds like a plan.

So, are you brewing it as is, from the file I posted at post #14? With 29 litres VIF?

You can use the hops that is meant for dry hopping and bring up the 15 mins. and 5 mins. additions to 37.6 g / 1.33 ounces.
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Post #25 made 9 years ago
by rmklaw
Hi Mad Scientist. I will lower the volume in fermentor to 6 gallon or so to end up with a full Cornelious keg after raking. However, I will keep the grain bill as per the recipe without scaling down. Do you see any problems? Thanks.
Richard
Aspiring Home Brewer
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