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BIABacus Sanity Check

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
Hi all, I'm new to the forum and excited to be here.

I've done three BIABs prior to using the BIABacus - a Red Ale, a SMASH ale, and an Oatmeal Stout. I'm using a five gallon pot to get to three gallons in the fermenter. I've been mashing with three gallons and sparging the bag to get to a 4 gallon preboil wort. Successful so far with 75-80% "efficiency", but I have to admit it wasn't done with any amount of precision. Through my own experiments boiling water with the pot, I knew my evaporation rate was just under a gallon, so I just backed into my volumes from that.

BIABacus appears to be a great tool to eliminate my previous casual attempts. The following will be my first test using a very well known Centennial Blonde recipe to see how the number stack up. I'd be very interested if anyone can poke holes with my attached BIABacus upload. I'm not sure if I've violated any rules posting the recipe, but I did give credit.

Just a note that I adjusted B81 in order to get the color discrepancy cell BR46 to show N/A due to scaling the recipe. I also added a line in the Recipe Report A25 to show the strike temperature. My apologies.

Anyway, my thanks to team and to what looks like a great tool! :clap:

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Three Starr Brewery
Style: Blonde Ale 6B
Source Recipe Link: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/centenn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... all-42841/

Original Gravity (OG): 1.039
IBU's (Tinseth): 22.4
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.57
Colour: 6.5 EBC = 3.3 SRM
ABV%: 4.02

Efficiency into Kettle (EIK): 87.5 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 78.8 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures
Strike Temp: 68.2 C = 154.8 F
Mash: 60 mins at 65.6 C = 150 F
Boil: 60 min
Ferment: 14 days at 21.1 C = 70 F

Volumes & Gravities

Total Water Needed (TWN): 16.67 L = 4.4 G
Volume into Kettle (VIK): 16.1 L = 4.25 G @ 1.032
End of Boil Volume - Ambient (EOBV-A): 12.6 L = 3.33 G @ 1.039
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 11.35 L = 3 G @ 1.039
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 10.51 L = 2.78 G @ 1.008 assuming apparent attenuation of 80 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

80% 2-Row US (3.9 EBC = 2 SRM) 1517 grams = 3.34 pounds
8.6% Carapils (4 EBC = 2 SRM) 163 grams = 0.36 pounds
5.7% Caramel 10L (20.7 EBC = 10.5 SRM) 108 grams = 0.24 pounds
5.7% Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC = 3.5 SRM) 108 grams = 0.24 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

8.9 IBU Centenial Pellets (10.1%AA) 4 grams = 0.143 ounces at 55 mins
7.5 IBU Centenial Pellets (10.1%AA) 4 grams = 0.143 ounces at 35 mins
4.5 IBU Cascade Pellets (6.7%AA) 5 grams = 0.176 ounces at 20 mins
1.5 IBU Cascade Pellets (6.7%AA) 5 grams = 0.176 ounces at 5 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 60 mins at 65.55 C = 149.98999999999998 F
Water Held Back from Mash: 3.75 L = 0.99 G

Water Used in a Sparge: 3.75 L = 0.99 G
Mashout for for 0 mins at 78 C = 172.4 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Noddingham for 14 days at 21.1 C = 69.98 F

Secondary Used: No
Crash-Chilled: No
Filtered: No
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.2
Serving Temp: 6 C = 42.8 F
Condition for 14 days.
Consume within 6 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer



Maxi-BIAB Adjustments

Water Held Back from Mash: 3.75 L = 0.99 G
Water Used in a Sparge: 3.75 L = 0.99 G




END OF REPORT
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Last edited by DenverBrewer on 05 Sep 2013, 08:05, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
I get this;
unreadable content.jpg
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Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 05 Sep 2013, 08:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
[EDIT: Just reaching the end of my post now and am finding more corruptions in the file. You are going to have to re-type this recipe into a fresh BIABacus unfortunately.]

Welcome to the forum DB :peace:,

I mightn't have much time in the next week to write too much more in this thread so will put in as many things as I can think of now for you ;).

I had the same warnings as Mad-Scientist above. I think the BIABacus can become unprotected if you open it in OpenOffice etc. This can be a worry as there are many hidden cells that can easily get deleted. These cells may be critical for your set-up and if deleted, may give you some wrong answers.

There's also actually some formatting that has gone missing and many cells are not displaying properly in their appearance. So, the first thing we have to recognise here is that this BIABacus file is corrupted to some degree.

Another thing is that atm, (and please don't be worried about this) is that pre-release BIABacus files are only meant to be posted in a few restricted threads. The best one is this one. The reasons for this are so that the site does not get full of constantly-changing pre-release or unofficial BIABacus files and also so that your questions don't get missed.

Let's get into the actual file and methods...

1. Sections A and B are nicely filled out. I'll come back to the 60 min boil though later.

2. Not sure why you put N/A in the colour thing. You probably had good reason to change the formula so please let us know in this thread. I understand why you added strike temp into the Recipe report but there is a reason why we actually don't have it in that report. (We really need several reports - one for the brewer and one for sharing with others :roll:).

3. See how on the left hand side of Section C you have typed in 0.8, 0.086, 0.057, 0.057 etc? They should be 3175, 340, 227 and 227. (I know what you have done but converting the pounds to grams is much easier and much clearer as well. Put those numbers in and you will see what I mean.)

4. The original recipe does not actually contain enough information to copy it exactly. See this thread for reasons why. In Section D, your interpretation of that recipe having an EOBV-A of 20.82 is as good as any interpretation. It might be exactly right or it may be off. There is no way of telling and nothing indicates it to be way off so stick with it.

5. Nice job on the hop additions and your AA% adjustments.

6. Everything else looks fine as well except the 60 minute mash. Let's look at this and some other methodology things...

Improvements to the Brewing Process

1. A 90 Minute Boil - A 60 minute boil is certainly fine for an extract brew (the stuff has already been boiled) but it may not give you best quality on an all-grain brew. Many all-grainers do a 60 minute boil and their beers are fine if not perfect. You should be conscious though when you select a 60 minute boil that you are introducing risk factors. Read this.

2. A 90 Minute Mash - A 60 minute mash is not enough for a BIAB brew. In a traditional brew, at a minimum they will 60 minute mash and then they will spend at least another 30 minutes buggering around with sparging. This means that the grain is exposed to hot water for at least 90 minutes.

Time is very important when it comes to an efficient brewery. Remember with BIAB, the mash and sparge is combined. Cramming the mash/sparge into 60 minutes will give a lot different result to one done over 90 minutes. Go 90 minute and then a mash-out if you can.

3. Sparging in BIAB should always be avoided if you can put all your water into the mash. Even if you can't fit all your water into the mash, it is very rare that sparging is warranted. Read this and subsequent posts - grab a beer first ;).

Hope that is enough to get you on your way DB. Others can expand on the above if you need some more info.

If you want a later Pre-Release BIABacus file that is not officially released yet, go to the first thread I linked here and back-track through my posts until you find a PR1.3I. That one has some new terminology.

And, no more un-protecting/re-writing BIABacus formulas DB!!!!

:lol:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Sep 2013, 19:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
So...the file shows corruption and may have some unprotected areas. I'm actually using Google Docs, so that may explain the problem. My apology for posting in the wrong area and I'll hunt up the latest release and give it a go and will start to use the new terminology. Any chance this thread can be moved to the correct restricted thread? I'll have to figure out if using Google Docs is a problem.

I did adjust Section C using grams vs percentages, and changed to a 90 min mash and boil. Much better and easier to read!

My kettle won't fit all the water which is why I add the extra gallon after the mash (draining the 1 gallon through the pulled grain bag at pre-boil to get to the Volume in Kettle).

Thanks all for your comments. :thumbs:

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
Here's the updated file using PR1.3I. This was done in Google Docs; is it still not opening correctly? Unfortunately, Google saves it in the newer xlsx format, or provides a choice to save it in Open Office or a PDF format.
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
DenverBrewer wrote:Here's the updated file using PR1.3I. This was done in Google Docs; is it still not opening correctly? Unfortunately, Google saves it in the newer xlsx format, or provides a choice to save it in Open Office or a PDF format.
Same error message.
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 06 Sep 2013, 08:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
OK....latest upload this time using a .xls format provided by LibreOffice. Is the file viewable using Excel? Anything odd with my first calculations using BIABacus?

My main concern is that my 5 Gallon pot isn't large enough to do a 3 gallon batch into the fermenter, so I'm adding water after the mashing as seen in Section W. I'm also curious as to why in Section C there is a -14% color discrepancy. Is that 14% lighter than the original recipe? :scratch:
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Denver, this one is appearing dodgy as well. You are going to have to start from scratch...

1. Download PR 1.3I from the link MS gave.
2. Open it using Libre Office
3. Type in your ingredients and numbers etc again - won't take too long.
4. Save it and post it up here.
5. Never use Google Docs again :P.

In the dodgy file above, I noticed tht you are adding 3.75 litres as a sparge. Move that to 'Water Added Before the Boil'. That will save you mucking around with sparging and will only cost you an extra 80 grams in grain. (Read the three Sweet Liquor Shop links I just gave at the beginning of this post.)

As for the colour discrepancy, ignore it. That will probably get removed as it is mis-leading. What it is really trying to say is that the scaled recipe is 0.6 SRM lighter than the original recipe. Why? Because our efficiency is higher than the original recipe. AS for the reality, who knows as colour formulas are pretty dodgy. One thing for sure though, we don't have to worry about the difference between 3.9 SRM and 3.3 SRM.

Hang in there Denver, your next upload, if you start from scratch following the steps above, should get you on the right track.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Sep 2013, 15:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
PP

I was not able to find a blank PR1.3I file, so I used the PR1.3I Amber Ale spreadsheet that you posted in #1397 on page 56, http://www.biabrewer.info/download/file.php?id=1940. Please let me know if this worked. I didn't delete any cells, just typed my info in the cells and saved.

I like what you did with the 1 gallon of water I need at pre-boil. That will save me some work and perhaps I might use the grain bag to drain off some wort for a future yeast starter instead of sparging it into the kettle. I didn't realize the ROI was so low in trying to sparge the grain bag. :party:

Thank you for helping an aspiring BIABacus user. I hope to get this spreadsheet right and get the brew done this Tuesday and upload my results. Exciting stuff!
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Last edited by DenverBrewer on 08 Sep 2013, 22:15, edited 2 times in total.

Post #11 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
:champ:

That's come out perfectly Denver :salute:. I don't think there was a blank PR1.3I so over-writing the one you found is perfect.

Everything looks great. The only tiny correction I could make would be to cut the whirfloc down to 1/4 tablet for that size brew.

Good idea on getting some starter wort up :peace:. Try and keep that Nottingham a bit cool when you first pitch. That stuff goes berserk!!! You'll need a blow-off tube if the headspace in your fermentor is a bit small.

Cheers Denver,
PP
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
Brew completed on 9/13/2013. Below is an analysis of my first use of the BIABacus.

I didn't trust the water volumes as they appeared to be high, however I plowed ahead and followed the spreadsheet estimations as close as possible. I'm certainly glad I did! :party: Volumes were spot on all the way through the brew session. I have a five gallon pot marked in one gallon increments but pulled out a ruler to measure volumes using the head-space measurements. My wife thought I was looney, but the head-space calculations worked perfect.

I had an interesting issue with the mash. I have a Thermapen thermometer and I stir a lot to eliminate any hot/cold spots, so I was pretty sure I was able to get an accurate strike waster temp of 155F. At 155F, I rained and stirred the grains in to make sure I had even temps and discovered the temp had dropped 8 degrees instead of the expected 5 degrees. The starting grain temp was correct so maybe I took too long stirring in the grains? The mash was now at 147F instead of the expected 150F. So, I goosed the temp back up and stirred again from the bottom to get to the required 150F mash temp. I'm not sure why I had a 3F degree discrepancy. :scratch: I placed the pot in a 170F oven and turned off the heat. 90 minutes later I pulled the pot, stirred, and discovered the pot had lost just one degree. Not too bad.

My other off area was the SG. BIABacus estimated a GIB SG of 1.029, however I finished the pre-boil at 1.027. Just a little off, so I expect that will drop the estimated ABV from 4% to 3.8% (assumes 80% attenuation). I thought about boiling a little more to reduce the volume to get to the desired SG, but decided I wanted to see how the BIABacus water volumes would continue to work. In hindsight, perhaps there was a couple of things I should have done to get those couple of points - I could have stirred the mash a few times and maybe I could have done a mashout. Thoughts? In the future I probably will not stir during the mash as I don't won't to lower the temp, but I will do a mash out. Anyway, I can't complain too much about the efficiency since it appears by the spreadsheet I achieved a 72.7% EIF.

The rest of the brew went well and on schedule. I was apprehensive boiling with a headspace of just .85 of an inch. But a few drops of Fermcap and the boil and hop drops went without a hint of a boil-over. Chilled the wort to 68F, calculated a GAW OG of 1.037, and pitched the yeast.

Overall, I'm extremely pleased with the program and I'm definitely going to continue using it. Thanks again for such a great program! :champ: I have updated and attached the spreadsheet with the results from the brew day. I would appreciate any comments and recommendations. I can't wait until my next brew.

Cheers!
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Everything looks real good, you make it sound so easy to brew beer in the kitchen, and if the wife gets in the way, well, that yard stick comes in handy. :lol:

Sorry to hear about the poor efficiency into boil :argh: (20.9%), but you made a good comeback !!! :lol:

:peace:
MS
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
DenverBrewer wrote:MS,

Good point. Is that a spreadsheet glitch or something I initially did? I can't figure that one out.
You entered gallons into the liter boxes. :argh:
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 12 Sep 2013, 05:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
After five days the Nottingham yeast has torn through the wort and left a FG of 1.005. This brings the ABV to 4.1%. So although I was off a couple of points in the efficiency the yeast appears to have made up the points with a 86% attenuation. I'm very pleased. :smoke:

Post #19 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good stuff Denver ;),

Just had a look at your file and one thing I noticed is that your actual volume figures are an exact match to the BIABacus which does not sound right. I'm assuming yu just copied the volume figures from Section K to L rather than actually physically measuring them? If so, this means that the reported efficiency figures can't be relied upon. (Any actual/real efficiency figure requires both a physical volume reading and a physical gravity reading.) Bear that in mind for next time.

Regarding the right strike temperature, this actually varies from equipment to equipment. For now, see this post.

You also mention a discrepancy of two gravity points pre-boil. This is nothing and any brewer who tells you they hit their numbers every time spot on is unlikely to be an experienced brewer. You should not be hitting your numbers bang on, there should always be variance for many reasons. So, if you can, avoid the trap of treating numbers like a religion. A lot of us have done that - don't you! Here's a better way to think of them...

Let's say you want 23 L into your fermentor of 1.050 wort and that you have filled out the BIABacus sensibly or had it checked here. Should you expect 23 L at 1.050?

No!

For example, if you brewed on a windy day, you will end up with much less wort but it will be at a higher gravity. For example, you might end up with something like 21 L at 1.055 specific gravity. Or on a still humid day, you might end up with 25L @ 1.046.

Just stop though for a second and look a those numbers...

23 x 50 = 1150 'litre' sugar units (Non-metric users see end of post.)
21 x 55 = 1155 'litre' sugar units
25 x 46 = 1150 'litre' sugar units

See how close the 'sugar units' are? That is what we are actually trying to predict.

To go a bit further, if the BIABacus says you will get 1150 'sugar units', should you expect 1150?

No!

A new user using BIABacus defaults will probably do a bit better than 1150 as the defaults are set slightly low. This is a sensible and practical approach for reasons I don't want to go into here.

But, other variables also occur on a brew day. Even if you brew the same recipe a month apart, your tap water changes probably daily and grain's (malt's) 'sugar potential' changes on each malting.

Going even further than that, you'll never squeeze/drain a bag identically from one brew to another, This and the above are just some of the things that affect your 'kettle efficiencies'.

Finally, your kettle to fermentor loss can vary dramatically from one brew to the next. For example, a very hoppy brew with no trub management techniques could lead from a respectable 'kettle efficiency' to an atrocious 'fermentor efficiency'.

The Purpose of Numbers

Used well, numbers will do two things...

1. They will tell you the most sensible amount of water, grain, hops etc to use to achieve a desired outcome.

2. If, on repeated brews, your actual numbers are showing a pattern of not matching estimates, numbers can help you find whether you have a process error (or hopefully a process positive.)

As for one brew or one reading on a single brew, it has virtually no value. Just note it but do nothing more until you see a pattern develop.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Non-Metric Users

The volume figure can be substituted with anything really. "'Litre' sugar units," is a term I just made up. You could just as easily think in, "'US Gallon' sugar units," or "'Imp. Gallon' sugar units."

For example, 6 gallons at 1.050 = 6 x 50 = 300 'gallon' sugar units.

These are not official terms, just a way of thinking about your brew numbers.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Sep 2013, 18:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #20 made 12 years ago
by jimboale
Is there a link to the original (blank, no recipe or equipment info) BIABacus PR1.3I spreadsheet?

I keep seeing references to it, and an occasional recipe link, but it would be nice to start with a blank sheet.

My last attempt to use BIABacus ended in frustration, because a lot of it made no sense to me. So I reverted to the calculator spreadsheet.

I would like to give the most recent version a try...

Jim

Post #21 made 12 years ago
by mally
I don't recall there being a blank Jimboale, but it only takes a few seconds to delete all the entries and save as a blank.
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Post #22 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
That is how I did it with the spreadsheet in this post. I recommend you use the last one I uploaded and then simply update the fields with your brew information. After a bit of help from the gurus on this site i'm quite pleased with the program and will continue to use it.

Post #23 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
PistolPatch wrote:Good stuff Denver ;),

Just had a look at your file and one thing I noticed is that your actual volume figures are an exact match to the BIABacus which does not sound right. I'm assuming yu just copied the volume figures from Section K to L rather than actually physically measuring them? If so, this means that the reported efficiency figures can't be relied upon. (Any actual/real efficiency figure requires both a physical volume reading and a physical gravity reading.) Bear that in mind for next time.
Interesting you picked up on that - you guys don't miss any details! I'm a bit embarassed to admit this, but I was using a 12' measuring tape inside the pot to get the headspace measurements. :lol: I didn't want to actually dunk my tape into the hot wort, but the estimated measurements from BIABacus were so close I just went with the estimates.

I want to purchase one if those metal rulers so I can measure more accurately from the bottom of the kettle rather than using the headspace from the top of the kettle. Thanks for the lengthy guidance. I hope to try this again this week using a simple SMASH MO/Amarillo brew.
Last edited by DenverBrewer on 23 Sep 2013, 02:16, edited 2 times in total.

Post #24 made 12 years ago
by DenverBrewer
PistolPatch wrote: Just had a look at your file and one thing I noticed is that your actual volume figures are an exact match to the BIABacus which does not sound right. I'm assuming yu just copied the volume figures from Section K to L rather than actually physically measuring them? If so, this means that the reported efficiency figures can't be relied upon. (Any actual/real efficiency figure requires both a physical volume reading and a physical gravity reading.) Bear that in mind for next time.

Regarding the right strike temperature, this actually varies from equipment to equipment. For now, see this post.
Well I did another brew and attempted to be a little more exact in my measurements. Yep, still using a carpenter tape measure. :lol:

First, with regards to the strike water temp problem I had in the last batch, I adjusted the "Change Strike Water Temp" in Section X to .5 to get me a few degrees higher temp. With the new adjustment, my strike water came out one degree higher instead of being 3 degrees lower as seen on my last effort. I did a vigorous stir and a minute later my mash temp dropped one degree to the target mash temp. On the next attempt I'll adjust it to .4 and see if that gets me right on the mark.

The second issue was evaporation. Using my same Volume into Boil of 4.65G (.85" head-space) with a 90 min boil I expected to see a Volume at Flame-out of 3.46G (3.38" head-space). Instead, it finished at 3 3/16" of head-space. Really not off a lot -> 3.38" - 3.1875" = .1925". So, I think over a 90 min boil my set evaporation rate was less than a 1/4" off (default a tad too high). Not sure that's even necessary to adjust in Section X due to changes in humidity, etc., from brew to brew? If I did change it, I'd use a 2.75L/hr or .73G/hr adjustment in Section X for the next attempt. I figured being at Denver altitude and lower humidity, I'd see more evaporation rather than less as predicted in the default.

Anyway, I'm having fun tweaking the numbers and believe I almost have my modest little kettle dialed in. :P
Last edited by DenverBrewer on 28 Sep 2013, 01:11, edited 2 times in total.

Post #25 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
DenverBrewer wrote: Well I did another brew and attempted to be a little more exact in my measurements. Yep, still using a carpenter tape measure. :lol:
Good job DB.

I also use a tape measure for the brew day and yeast pitching day. It has both US and Metric.

I ferment in a corny keg and have a BIABacus equipment profile for it. So I enter this [measurement] into Section L as VIF.

:peace:
MS
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 28 Sep 2013, 05:04, edited 2 times in total.
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