Efficiency on first BIAB

Post #1 made 12 years ago
Hi,

Just completed first BIAB *woot! Everything seemed to go pretty well. Now I have a bunch of reading and figures, is it possible that I can work out my efficiency? Not to be one who is super caught up in the numbers, however I wouldn't mind, if possible, simply knowing how efficient my brew day was. Just wondering if anyone has a super straight forward explanation how on to calculate this?

Cheers,

Lee :salute:

Post #2 made 12 years ago
Hmmm have a problem!

Just measured the OG into the fermenter and have a reading of 1.060 when was aiming for (using the BIABacus) 1.052.

Should i dilute??

MODNOTE: See posts 8 and 11 below for full explanation on the discrepancy between the estimated and actual number.
Last edited by BrewBagMan on 19 Jan 2013, 17:04, edited 2 times in total.

Post #3 made 12 years ago
[Just saw your post above. Will come to it in a second.)

Congratulations Lee :thumbs:,

Hope all went well for you.
BrewBagMan wrote: Not to be one who is super caught up in the numbers, however I wouldn't mind, if possible, simply knowing how efficient my brew day was.
Good. It's most important to not get obsessed with numbers.
BrewBagMan wrote: Just wondering if anyone has a super straight forward explanation how on to calculate this?
No. (you'll see why later).

The logic of an efficiency calculation is actually very simple. All you are basically doing is comparing how much 'sugar' you have in your wort compared to the amount they were able to extract in the laboratory.

Here's a simple example...

A Simple Example

Let's say you used 10 pounds of grain in your brew and you knew from the laboratory that your grain had an extract potential of 35.5 ppg. This means that if you are hundred percent efficient, you should score...

10 * 35.5 = 355 gravity points in your brew.

Let's say you at the beginning of your boil, you had 7 gallons of wort (after allowing for shrinkage due to cooling) and that wort had a specific gravity of 1.040. This means you scored 7 * 40 = 280 gravity points. (Gravity points are the numbers to the right of the decimal point in a specific gravity, multiplied by a thousand).

So, 280 / 355 = 78.9 % EIK (Efficiency into Kettle)

At the end of the boil, you might get say 5.6 gallons (after allowing for shrinkage due to cooling) at a specific gravity of 1.050 which also equals 280 gravity points (5.6 * 50).

So your EOB-E (End of Boil Efficiency) is also 78.9%.

(EIK and EOB-E should be close to each other. While you have less wort at the end of the boil, the gravity is higher.)

Let's have a look now at what happens at the pitching stage. Let's say you get 5.0 gallons into your fermentor. (In other words, you lost 0.6 gallons to trub). The specific gravity will not be any different from the end of the boil so now we have 250 gravity points (5 * 50).

So, 250 / 355 = 70.4% EIF (Efficiency into Fermentor)

Normal brewing practices always involve some sort of kettle trub losses so EIF will always be lower than EIK and EOB-E. The discrepancy between them is an indication of your trub losses. EIF does not contain anywhere near the amount of valuable information as EIK or EOB-E

The Reality

The reality of working out the calculation can be horrendously complex because maltsters can list the extract potential of their grains in many different ways. In your grain bill, you may have one malt with a listed extract potential of 76.8% while another malt may have it listed as 35.5 ppg. Another grin may have the extract potential listed as LDK. Another may have it listed as 80% FGDB with 4% MC.

:argh: :argh: :argh:

See what I mean?

And what if you are a metric user and...

Furthermore, the extract potential from one batch of grain from the same maltster may vary considerably. Unless you have the spec sheet for that batch of grain, you are already approximating things.

A Simple Way Around This

There are many simple ways to work out efficiency in both metric, imperial and US customary units. I was going to show these but the post will get too confusing.

All these simple methods hinge on using a good "average" extract potential. (For example, the 35.5 ppg is what the BIABacus uses unless you over-ride each individual fermentable)).

What We Can Do

Hopefully the above explains both the simplicity and complexity of efficiency calcs.

There are many ways to answer your question. For example, we could answer it in metric. Or we can show you what fields you need to fill in in the BIABacus to get your answers.

Let's take a break at this stage though so as you can digest the above.

Probably the next step is to look at what raw information you need. I'll write this a bit later on.

Congrats again ;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2013, 18:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
Re the 1.060 versus 1.052, if your end of boil volume is less than predicted, then I would dilute but I'd really prefer a lot more info here.

No need to rush this decision and I'll be around for the next hour or so.

I think you were doing maxi-BIAB as well? Mmmm...

On reflection, I think you'll need to post your BIABacus file up for us to come to a good decision? (I know it's not meant to go here but I'm sure the guys can move it later.)

:peace:

P.S. After you post your file here, take another gravity reading after you aerate if you are chilling. In other words, make sure you get a well-mixed sample.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2013, 18:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
[Just deleted that last post. We will need some info.]

I just found your Black Sheep BIABacus file. I remember now, it was a mini maxi-BIAB :P.

Here's what we need to make the best decision possible and we can also work out your EOB-E and EIF too :party: ...

1. Another gravity reading as mentioned in the post above. Make sure the sample is mixed and cool.

2. Either your end of boil volume (and whether you are measuring it hot or cold)

AND/OR

How much kettle trub you had and how much wort you have in the fermentor.

I'll be working on the file posted in the other thread. If you have changed it, post your changed file here.

;)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2013, 18:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
Hey PP, thanks for the in depth (will take me a while to get my head around :think: but really appreciate it!

attached is my file. just measured the OG again and is still 1.060 at 13 liters into FV.

To be honest I think I was in such a tizz while brewing that wasn't sure what exactly I was meant to be measuring. This is what I'd like to get nailed for my next brew.

Can I gather anything from these figures? Sorry if seem a little dim witted :dunno:
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
Dim-witted? Far from it Lee. A lot of this stuff can be incredibly confusing.

Okay, as the second reading is a match, I reckon dilute with 2 litres. This will bring it down to 1.052.

In the file below, I have typed your figures into the BIABacus in Sections P & Q. I guessed your KFL (Kettle to Fermentor Loss) in Section P. You can now see your actual efficiencies in Section T.

Also note the 2.0 litres I have typed into Section R (Extra Water Added to Fermentor).

I'll get this posted and then we can look more at this.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2013, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
I have a quick question for you Lee...

In the Maxi-BIAB Adjustments section, that 4.0 litres you have typed in beside "Water Added After Final Lauter"...

Did that water touch the grain at all or did you just use it as plain top-up water?
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
BrewBagMan wrote:Yes I poured it over the grain in a sparge'esque fashion. So i held the bag over a bucket a poured hot water over the bag, in effect rinsing the grains. Does this make sense?
It does make sense. In fact, you are going to see something interesting here...

In your current file, the estimated efficiencies were very low and were as follows...

EIK and EOB-E = 69.3% (EIF = 62.4%)

In that last file I sent you, move that 4.0 litres to 'Water Used in a Sparge'.

Your estimated efficiencies will now change to...

EIK and EOB-E = 78.3% (EIF = 70.5%)

Your actual efficiencies were (from the numbers we have)...

EIK and EOB-E = 77.3% (EIF = 72.0%)

So...

Your brew is actually very much on target.

The problem was where the 4.0 litres was placed in the BIABacus and a good example of how poor terminology can cause problems. The 'Water Added After Final Lauter' needs to be changed to something less ambiguous.

That 4.0 litres you used was actually, 'Water Used in a Sparge'. The more water that 'touches' the grain the more efficient the brew.

The BIABacus however 'thought' that 4.0 litres was just going to be a plain dilution. It didn't 'realise' that the 4.0 litres would actually be rinsing the grain so it lowered your estimated efficiency and made you use more grain than you actually needed.

What the numbers tell us

The numbers tell us that nothing has gone wrong in this brew. Everything is adding up very nicely. You scored 2 L more beer than predicted because of the current poor terminology but that's great. On your next brew, you should continue to rely on the defaults in the BIABacus as they are actually working well for you.

(Just make sure that any water that touches the grain is not entered as a dilution).

Go and have a beer!

You must be buggered and/or excited. I'm really glad that the BIABacus numbers have worked for you. We can't tell much from a single brew but having the actual numbers balance with the estimated ones are a great sign that you are on target and have done everything right.

Good on you Lee :thumbs:,
PP

PS. We can come back to this thread later re the efficiency calcs if you like but give your brain a rest for now and celebrate :party:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2013, 20:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
Great bit of investigation PP! Maybe we should call you Sherlock? :smoke:
"All I know is that the beer is good and people clamor for it. OK, it's free and that has something to do with it."
Bobbrews
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
Trout, I just read your last post in the Brewing and Fermenting shortcuts thread. I'd never advise it to a new brewer but I love it ;). Maybe what I write below will explain why?

I hate and love writing about numbers. I hate writing about numbers because I think it detracts from the artistry, flexibility and forgiveness of brewing. I love writing about numbers because they can also act as a most valuable tool. (And I love correcting all the wrong formulas, terminology etc out there ;)).

The nice thing about BrewBagMan is that he is interested in numbers but not obsessed by them. It's such a good attitude. (I hope he is having a beer now and feeling very proud!)

Why the BIABacus worked so well today.

It was very nice today to be able to use the BIABacus in a real life, practical situation. If Lee had used any other program, we would have been stuck with totally inadequate answers. I would have spent hours analysing his numbers and probably come up with an unreliable answer.

The auto-efficiency estimate of the BIABacus is a totally new paradigm but should have been in all brewing software ever written. (Just remember that BIABrewer.info asked stux to work on this and that his work enabled BIABrewer to come up with the base numbers we use in the auto-efficiency formula today.)

All other software takes the easy way out by asking the user to specify their efficiency. That's like saying, "Here's ten gallons of fuel for your car. You will be able to drive 200 miles." But, if you are stop/start driving or driving uphill, you might only get 100 miles. If you are on an open road, you might get 300 miles.

A low gravity brew is exactly that, you are coasting down hill. A high gravity brew is exactly that, you are pushing hard.
This is why the auto-efficiency estimate feature of the BIABacus is an incredibly important breakthrough.
Without it, you'll run out of fuel before you get to your destination or find yourself with half a tank left when you get there.
The auto-efficiency feature of the BIABacus is major but many subtle features came into play today. The best example of this is having everything (besides reports etc) on the one sheet and having everything in a place where it offers the most value possible.

This made it very fast and easy for me to ask that question about the 4 litres.

What if Lee had answered differently?

Once we found the problem, Lee's numbers worked out very nicely but what if they didn't?

There are so many factors here, it's impossible to cover them. The auto-efficiency estimate formula we use hasn't been tested enough, let alone at the extremes of Lee's brew where lots of dilution was involved.

Let's pretend though that the auto-efficiency estimate formula we use is perfect. If the efficiency numbers didn't add up, it could be because the grain wasn't weighed correctly, the grain bill was way off the normal all-grain, the gravity reading was incorrect, the volume was incorrect, the mashing thermometer is inaccurate etc, etc.

When the numbers match up, as they did for Lee, they let us know we are in the game, there's probably nothing we have forgotten and that we will probably win.

Can't believe I wrote all that :roll:,
PP

PS Might do an edit tomorrow. Brain isn't working as 'efficiently' as I'd like :P.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Jan 2013, 03:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
PP,

The BIABacus has been making the numbers side of things much more interesting to me, and I do now pay attention to them, but I will never be a "numbers guy". I can see how BIABacus has made it so much easier to find mistakes on our brews.
"All I know is that the beer is good and people clamor for it. OK, it's free and that has something to do with it."
Bobbrews
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Post #15 made 12 years ago
2trout wrote:PP,

The BIABacus has been making the numbers side of things much more interesting to me, and I do now pay attention to them, but I will never be a "numbers guy". I can see how BIABacus has made it so much easier to find mistakes on our brews.
Totally agree with you!
Last edited by BrewBagMan on 20 Jan 2013, 06:09, edited 2 times in total.

Post #16 made 12 years ago
Apologies for the delayed response, been out of the house since early morning and haven't had the chance to digest the feedback from PP's sleuth work.

Must say that I'm super impressed with the workings of the BIABacus. In hindsight I'm glad that I made the move to just jump into the brew knowing that I wasn't really confident with the volume numbers. Taking on board the commentary from PP I'm already looking forward to the next brew day where I can show off what I've learned.

I agree that some of the wording/terminology can be a little confusing but I'm not too sure how you could remedy this. I wouldn't want you guys dumbing things down as I believe that it's my responsibility to know the difference between sparge/lauter etc.

Thanks for the efficiency explanation. I was confused as, like you say PP, all other brewing software requires you to estimate your own efficiency. I didn't realise that that the almighty BIABacus calculates it for you based on the data inputted. Awesome!

And at the end of it all I have an extra to liters of ale to enjoy. Win win.

Cheers,

Lee :salute:

Post #17 made 12 years ago
Phew! I thought your post above might ask about the manual efficiency calcs and I don't think my brain is up to that today :lol:.

There is actually a whole thread here on the calcs. If you are a masochist, you'll love it. It might be worth a very quick scan though to see how messy the calculations on a real grain bill can get in all the different systems.

Anyway, have changed the 'Water Used After Final Lauter' to 'Water Added Before the Boil'. Couldn't think of anything else but hopefully it is less confusing Lee.

Hope you had fun yesterday ;),
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Jan 2013, 19:51, edited 2 times in total.
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