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Post #76 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sean and Yeasty,

This is another of the many crazy things abut hop formulas :roll:. Yeasty knows most, if not all, of the others (and I see you are catching on fast Sean) but I think we've only dealt with this particular one very briefly. This is another one of these bits of info you'll pretty much only find here. Good on us :party:.

Okay, I'm only going to talk about the Tinseth formula as the other formulas aren't even worth talking about as far as I am concerned. (From memory, one of them has it so that if your 'gravity' changes from 1.050 say to 1.051, then IBU's change massively. Between 1.049 and 1.050 or 1.051 or 1.052, no problem though :roll:. Can't remember the exact numbers but you get the idea of how crazy that is.)

So, let's concentrate on the Tinseth formula which is regarded to be the best for all-grain brews at least. What the formula says is that as gravity increases (and by that, he means original gravity assuming no post-boil dilutions. Most commercial software gets that wrong btw) hop utilisation decreases. But, it is not really the gravity that is lowering the utilisation, it is rather, the increased trub that coinicides with a higher gravity brew. In other words, the higher gravity wort has more trub and the hop oils stick to that trub, lowering the utilisation.

So, don't worry about when you add your sugar. If you want it to caramelise a bit, add it early. If not, add it late.

You'll actually find it makes not much difference in the Tinseth estimates anyway. Unless you were using something like 40% sugars, I wouldn't even give this stuff a second thought.

;)
PP
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Post #77 made 10 years ago
by SeanGodd
Makes sense to me PistolPatch. This answers my question perfectly! I would prefer to add the syrup at the end of the boil so to limit the caramelization to the candi. But I didn't want to affect the hops by doing this. ATM I am an extract brewer so All my boils are very high OG because I dilute when I put in the fermentor. I have always added the syrup at the end of the boil and seem to hit my numbers(well as much as you can tell by your tongue when IBU's are involved LOL)

Thanks again!!
Cheers!!

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Post #78 made 10 years ago
by Yeasty
Nice one PP, :shoot:

So that explains further the reason why when brewing a JZ/BCS recipes we should be inputing the IBU value into the second line of section D so as to account for our trub. :headhit: pennies dropped :sneak:

:salute:

Yeasty
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Post #79 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
I only caught onto this in the last six months I think Yeasty. It's not written anywhere. THe only thing that got me clued on to it was that I reckoned and comp results confirmed after a while that, "beers were under-hopped." They still did well but that was the main theme. Then I mucked around with Rager versus Tinseth and a good solution for BCS recipes seemed to be the one posted here as you mentioned.

Funnily enough, in one Jamil/John podcast I heard a few months ago, thy did mention, as an aside, that extract recipes would have better utilisation than AG ones. Why isn't this in the book let alone a well-known fact???

More crazy stuff :shock:.

Honestly, if you deliberately set out to make brewing numbers and terminology confusing and/or ridiculous, you really couldn't do a better job than the state of affairs that currently exists. I think we've gone a long way on this forum in the last few years to at least setting the foundation for a new paradigm in this area. Imagine if we could work on this full-time? We'd have the problem solved in no time!

Bugger, that was meant to be a short post :evil:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 07 Mar 2014, 18:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #80 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
EDIT: Some of the info below is incorrect. Please read this thread by bundy. As explained in this post, just use 21.82 L for the VAW of BCS recipes.]

This post relates again to Brewing Classic Styles Recipes and contains an updated 'fix'. It also answers skinks question from the first post in The Chronicles of Skink :).

[Some of the below may be repetitive as I initially was going to post it in another thread.]

[center]Adjusting the Hop Bill in Brewing Classic Styles Recipes[/center]
In any BCS (Brewing Classic Styles) recipe we are dealing with two discrepancies...

1. The recipe IBU's are based on the Rager hop IBU estimate formula.
2. The recipes are essentially extract recipes with an annotation at the end that converts them to all-grain.

Number 1 above is rarely dealt with anywhere apart from here and I've never seen number 2 dealt with on any other site. The touchstone though, that no one talks about, is that all-grain recipes will require more hops than an extract recipe because the extra trub etc 'grabs' oils out of the wort and then 'hangs onto' them.

My last answer on this in this thread for BCS recipes has been to just type the IBU number into the second line of Section D of the BIABacus because the Rager formula usually reads higher on most recipes. So, doing this would force you to use more hops on most recipes. But, I think that advice is probably wrong. It's just too much of a generalisation. Here's a screenshot from BeerSmith...
IBU Discrepancies 2.JPG
I think the last time I looked at this I used a different screenshot and nearly all recipes read higher in Rager. But, look at the above. The variations and anomalies are much greater than I originally thought. It was silly of me though to even suggest a solution based on such a strange formula as Rager. So, here is my next best guess at how to deal with this...

Latest Advice on BCS Recipes [See edit at beginning of this post.]

What we really need to be doing here is taking a guess at what no one has guessed at before (that I know of). We need to decide what percentage of hops we need to add extra to an all-grain brew compared to an extract. I've won quite a lot of Silvers just brewing BCS recipes but the majority of negative comments said, "Slightly under-hopped." In light of this...

My best guess on how to deal with this is to increase the hop bill by 12.5%.

The easiest way to do this in the BIABacus with BCS recipes is to make the first line of Section D read 20.19 L.

Note that this will affect the colour estimate of the original formula but not of the scaled formula.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Mar 2014, 19:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #81 made 10 years ago
by Skink
Thanks, PP - that makes perfect sense. I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment; my local club is in the All-Ireland Hurling final later today (hurling is one of our two national sports, and is sort of a cross between hockey and advanced psychosis), so things are a bit hectic in our little village right now. When things have calmed down and the hangovers have abated, I'll sort out my file, and publish 'The Chronicles of Skink Part 2 - the Quest for Excellus'...

Post #82 made 10 years ago
by blancasterb
I have brewed this one 2x now, the first one seemed to be a success. What got changed on this batch I did last week was putting in 75% in the efficiency in Section X, which I was later told I should not do. This did increase my grain/hop bills to larger amounts.
This one is still fermenting. It has been 6 days and is still gurgling. I made a yeast starter, and always use pure oxygen with a stainless air-stone prior to pitching.
I still have a full head of krausen nearly one week later.
Red.JPG
So tell me in the eyes of the BIAB gods.... Does this recipe have integrity? What would you change in this recipe to make it better?
One other thing I did do different in this one, I left the hop bag in the wort during the cooling process (use a immersion chiller for now) then I squeezed the heck out of the hop bag after wort was cool, just prior to racking off into the carboy.
What are thoughts on this?
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Last edited by blancasterb on 23 Mar 2014, 22:34, edited 2 times in total.

Post #83 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
blancasterb,
I left the hop bag in the wort during the cooling process (use a immersion chiller for now) then I squeezed the heck out of the hop bag after wort was cool, just prior to racking off into the carboy. What are thoughts on this?
The reason I no-chill is that I worry about infections with cool wort. With no-chill, I never have cool wort. So no worries! You have cool wort exposed to the danger of infection. Even if ever so slight of chance to infected. I would worry. Since I don't know your exact procedure you may be OK and I am just a worry wort?

If your hops are finishing hops? Last 10,5,0 or flame out minutes? Then you screwed up! When hops sit in 170F temperatures for more than 15 minutes they *isomerize. That means they change there chemical composition from a aroma hop to a bittering hop.

The recipe is compromised. The sweet aroma fragrance is driven off even after boiling action is stilled. I use some thermal plastic oven mits to squeeze the hot bag. See her below....

http://youtu.be/Rh04dELHB5U Cheers and good brewing! :drink:

*isomerization
In chemistry isomerization (also isomerisation) is the process by which one molecule is transformed into another molecule which has exactly the same atoms, but the atoms have a different arrangement e.g. A-B-C → B-A-C (these related molecules are known as isomers ).
Last edited by BobBrews on 23 Mar 2014, 23:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #84 made 10 years ago
by blancasterb
BobBrews,
If your hops are finishing hops? Last 10,5,0 or flame out minutes? Then you screwed up! When hops sit in 170F temperatures for more than 15 minutes they *isomerize. That means they change there chemical composition from a aroma hop to a bittering hop.

The recipe is compromised. The sweet aroma fragrance is driven off even after boiling action is stilled. I use some thermal plastic oven mits to squeeze the hot bag. See her below....
I think this is where I get confused. When should you pull your hops out? I use a sing hop bag so say I have 60, 30, 10 and 0 min hop additions. I have them all in the same bag. When do I pull the bag? How long should the 0 min addition stay in? Should I be using a 2nd bag for the 0 min additions?
Should I or should I not squeeze the hop bag? If its ok to squeeze, when should it be done? My thought is, If I squeeze into the boiling hot wort, wont I oxygenate it by the liquid pouring out of the hop bag?
Last edited by blancasterb on 23 Mar 2014, 23:47, edited 2 times in total.

Post #85 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
blancasterb.

It's a bit confusing I know. I vary my hop additions depending on the beer and recipe. First, lets get the easy stuff out of the way, Don't worry about oxygenating the beer doing any of this stuff. I hoist the bag out right after I turn off the heat. I let the hot wort drain for a minute or two and then I squeeze the poop out of it. If you don't have a pulley handy then just pull the bag and place a rack of some sort on top of the pot under the bag. A clean cooking colander will work if big enough? A old oven rack, a store bought replacement grill top, A cooling rack? Anything as long as its clean.

Squeezing the shit out of the bag does not induce tannins or bitterness. It's a old wives tale. Besides, you will get a glass of extra beer for all the squeezing and burnt sticky fingers. Is it really worth the hassle?

With the leaving the finishing hops in the wort question. First I normally just dump the bittering hops right into the kettle (no sack). The hops help to lessen the boil overs by giving nucleation points for the wort to cling and dissipate early. They have to be loose in the wort. The hop residue will fallout with the hot break and not hurt the wort.

Lets say you have a recipe that says 10 minute addition 5, and 0 minutes? Give the hop sack extra 5 minutes after flame out (0 minutes). That's an extra 5 minutes to all late additions. That means the 10 minute is in for 15 minutes. (10 is 15, 5 is 10 and 0 is +5) 15 minutes is the point that isomerization begins. So you are pulling the bag just as isomerization begins. No harm done.

The aroma hops timing is a bunch of bull in my book anyway. Just keep the hops in less (approx) than 15 minutes. Recipes may say 10 minutes for the Centennial hops, 5 minutes for the Amarillo hops and 0 minutes for the Simco hops. Are they telling me that I will taste a difference if I put the hops in, in the wrong order? "Rubbish I say!" :argh:

I all honesty. I have screwed up in every way possible! More than once and on the same thing too! My beer always came out drinkable. When I have missed temps, times or reversed hop additions. I always dreaded the worst possible outcome and received the best possible outcome. Beer!

Cheers to you! Remember that beer is very forgiving to you. You are it's Master! :smoke: (and slave :love: )?
Last edited by BobBrews on 24 Mar 2014, 00:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #86 made 10 years ago
by gmhowell
Blansterb,

No help, but I'm curious what the source of your recipe was. What were you trying to change with the change in section x and the change in hop handling?

Any tasting notes from the first batch?

I ask because I'm looking for a red ale recipe for my first or second biab.


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-George
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Post #87 made 10 years ago
by blancasterb
gmhowell wrote:Blansterb,

No help, but I'm curious what the source of your recipe was. What were you trying to change with the change in section x and the change in hop handling?

Any tasting notes from the first batch?

I ask because I'm looking for a red ale recipe for my first or second biab
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f65/raging-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... le-239188/

I changed section x because I read another post where the person was told to change it. Found out recently that I shouldn't mess with that. As far as the hops again in taking with others was told was a good idea to squeeze the hop bag to get liquid as well as hop flavor out of it. In this batch I left it in the wort till chilled . I should have pulled it sooner.
Last edited by blancasterb on 24 Mar 2014, 10:04, edited 2 times in total.

Post #88 made 10 years ago
by gmhowell
Reading through that thread and looking at a few things in your spreadsheet. I'm new at this, so I am not sure if I should even open my mouth, but since I've forewarned you, I'll take a chance:

The poster of that recipe, on page nine, mentions a mashout at 168 for ten minutes. It looks like there's a spot for that in Section E of BIABacus. Regarding the honey, there's some interesting info on this thread. The only trick is that it's not really in the boil, so I'm not sure if that matters to BIABacus. Oh, heck, that's you posting in that thread anyway :headhit:

You may be overhopped relative to the original recipe. The one posted on HBT used hops with lower AA than was listed. In BIABacus, the AA% and so forth of the original recipe should be on the left in section D. You would place your actual purchased (or grown?) hops in the right hand column. This lets BIABacus convert, taking into account the changes from time to time in AA% of hops. Also, the original recipe doesn't list what form of hops he used. I'm assuming pellets.

In section E, I notice you entered temps in F instead of C.
Last edited by gmhowell on 24 Mar 2014, 12:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #89 made 10 years ago
by Rick
For this beer, I wouldn't worry about leaving the hops in during chilling. You theoretically gained maybe 5 IBU's, which is pretty trivial. It's a good thing folks were nice to school you on this, because on a different beer this could have been a disaster.

I looked at the file, and don't really see the point in commenting on it much. You brewed it already, and have the ability to use your tastebuds.

I really don't think you entered his information into the BIABacus as well as you could have, but the recipe also has terrible integrity so what does it even matter? Good thing with that, though ... you can contact the HBT member with any questions to clear up ambiguity in his terms. What you want to do is put the original recipe on the left side of sections C and D, and any substitutions will go on the right hand side.

The only thing keeping me from making the proper edits to get the file right, is that you already brewed this and seem to like it. What is more important than that? Nothing. Your input methods could be serendipitous in the end, so if you like it ... keep on brewing it and call it your own.
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Post #90 made 10 years ago
by blancasterb
I did kinda do a botch job on filling out BIABacus. I just sent to original brewer a list of questions which hopefully will allow me to make this recipe have integrity.

Also as far as the honey, I know what that other thread says, but in this guys recipe he appears to be adding directly to the kettle at flameout. I have asked him about that as well
Hopefully he will answer!

Post #92 made 9 years ago
by nicko
Skink wrote:Thanks, PP - that makes perfect sense. I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment; my local club is in the All-Ireland Hurling final later today (hurling is one of our two national sports, and is sort of a cross between hockey and advanced psychosis), so things are a bit hectic in our little village right now. When things have calmed down and the hangovers have abated, I'll sort out my file, and publish 'The Chronicles of Skink Part 2 - the Quest for Excellus'...
Gold! Hurling looks insane, I'd definitely play it :salute: :clap:
Last edited by nicko on 30 Jun 2014, 08:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #93 made 9 years ago
by bundy
I came across this thread whilst doing some investigation work on the BCS Recipe Book which appears as a recommended link on the site under items Brewers should consider. I wanted to read what others thought before investing in the book.

From PP's - Post here

It seems the book is at the higher end for Recipes with Integrity but may cause problems with Hop scaling (If I read right)

Anyway thought I'd highlight something else I stumbled across. Its a Test that was conducted by Basic Brewing Radio a few years back, when testing the various IBU Calculators Rager, Tinseth, Garetz etc and how the predicted IBU result compared to Real life Lab testing.

This is the link to a Summary of the test results

The thing I found most interesting in the summary of test results (Post #7) was the Actual Tested IBU's (Tested in a lab) where rarely what was predicted by the formulas. Some were closer than others but none were perfect, and certainly none were perfect across all tests.

My take on that is for us mere Homebrewers, if we are within 20% of our calculated IBU's we are probably doing OK?

Anyway thought I'd share and see what others think.
Last edited by bundy on 31 Oct 2014, 07:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #94 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good on you bundy,

(One thing missing in the results is whether the batches were all-grain or extract. Tinseth tends to be the best on all-grain.)

As for the book, even though I suspect most of the recipes are extract with an all-grain conversion option rather than vice versa, this book has a lot of high quality information on the styles for a start, usually a page or two which is great info to have. It means you can check other recipes you come across to see if they are at least on the right track. As for the actual recipes in the book, I think making the IBU correction I've written at the end of the post you linked above is the best thing to do with the actual recipes.

This book will be money very well spent for anyone. If you are in the US, click on the BIABrewer.info before you go to Amazon. If you live elsewhere, try this but double-check the postage it might be a ridiculous amount.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Nov 2014, 19:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #95 made 9 years ago
by bundy
Just further to the BCS recipes and Hop utilisation of Extract V All Grain.

Earlier in this thread (somewhere) when discussing about the difference of All Grain V Extract Pat mentioned the only way was to speak to the Authors and ask them which is right Hops for Extract or All Grain. So I thought I'd take up the challenge to try and get in touch and ask him.

To his credit in only a few days I got a reply. It was a bit blase` but on reflection is probably fair enough.

I know I often get "hung up" on the numbers and as Pat and Bob so often point out on here to us, We shouldn't worry too much if we are a few points off as its near on impossible to consistently reproduce the exact same results over and over in the home brew environment. We just have dont have the control that the big brewers do.

So maybe adding 12.5% more hops isn't going to make that big a difference and we should just let our taste buds decide?

Anyway here was my email and the subsequent reply from Jamil.
Hi Jamil,

I am a fairly new All grain BIAB'er who after a few hit and miss recipes on the Internet have come across your (and John palmers) great book. Brewing classic styles. Which I now intend to use as my main source of inspiration at least to get the basics right before i experiment from there.

What I want to ask you though is in regard to your recipes as detailed in the book your all grain conversion uses the exact same hop bill as is used in the extract recipes.

I may be wrong but I would have thought (and have read) with all grain and the added trub lost post boil (which must hold some of the hop oils in it) that we would need a slighter higher hop bill as compared to extract recipes to end up with the same ibu's?

If that is the case would there be a rule of thumb to increase the hop bill by a certain percentage when brewing all grain?

Many thanks for your time.

Regards....Rob
Rob,
Don't over think it. You're worrying about one of the most insignificant bits. You should be focused on fermentation and everything else first. And even after that, you can ignore any difference in hop between all grain and extract. FAR more significant is pitching rate, yeast strain, fermenter shape, etc, etc.

So rightly or wrongly the Man himself says not to worry. For myself anyway I figure If I brew his recipes and like them as they are then all is good. If I think it needs more Hops, I guess I can start tweaking things down the track.

But thats just me, certainly has been good to ponder and discuss.
Last edited by bundy on 03 Nov 2014, 13:55, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #96 made 9 years ago
by jhough
Bundy, very good! I tend to worry to much about the things that are trivial at times during brewing. ie hop , mash , and boil times , when if in the ballpark (2-3 min) there should be no worries.
Just me being anal , I guess.
J
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Post #97 made 9 years ago
by Skink
Having brewed the ESB from the book (still my one and only brew, shame on me), and adjusted as per recommended by King PP et al, I think it could have been even hoppier, if anything. But then, as in everything, it's all about trial and error, and making a beer that suits your individual tastes, I suppose.

Post #98 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Very short on time but great job bundy :thumbs:. Always go to the original source any time you can.

But, your question was certainly side-stepped unfortunately.

...

I'm not great on politics but you asked, in your last two paragraphs, very well, very clearly and very politely, exactly one of the key questions that this thread has asked of the book (read this).

If you think that fermentor shape is more important to hop utilisation than whether the recipe is extract or all-grain then all is good.

...

Please try and find the J&J podcast that states what, on this site, we explored and now regard as practically and logically obvious - "An all-grain brew will require more hops."

...

The question you need to ask and no one wants to, is, "Was it an error publishing the book without making a correction for all-grain hops?"

I still support this book fully. It gets most things right. A second edition, if questions like the above are not dismissed and instead corrected would be superb. We all get things wrong in the brewing game. The main thing, for me anyway, is to find out the things we are getting wrong and then try and see if we can all get them right.

I'd write to John Palmer on this next. One thing I remember about John Palmer in a podcast is that he admitted that he got something wrong (quite a big thing) in something he had published. We all need to do this. So, I am thinking, ask him the question above?

I know he would be also be interested in our work on Clear Brewing Terminology (CBT) so, if you have time, maybe investigate these two areas with him? (Let me know if you need info on how to contact him.)

Gotta go,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Nov 2014, 20:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #99 made 9 years ago
by bundy
Ok Pat, I'll take up the challenge. :salute:

I'm listening to various Podcasts now to try and find the one you are referring to. (If you or anyone else has more info on when it was recorded might help me track it down)

So far I've found stuff that actually says the opposite :scratch: (but not from J&J and back from 2008) so to clear it up will be a worthwhile exercise

UPDATE:

Just found this BBR Podcast. John Palmer and James Spencer discuss Hop Utilization and the change of thinking that Gravity doesn't affect Hop utilisation . Towards the end around the 37 minute mark onwards he talks about losing AA in the hot break. The thing not really confirmed though, although it was discussed around the 44 minute mark, is how much difference between AG and Extract nor any tests to confirm difference in IBU's lost / gained between each method. It also says that the higher the proteins in the Wort (Depending on grain used) the likely higher reduction in IBU's.

In my speak "Wheat Beer will retain/hold onto more IBU's in the Trub than a Pilsener would"


I also found this experiment which test IBU's from 3 x different extract brewing methods. It follows up with Tasting notes and the IBU Lab results.

IBU Experiment Podcost - BYO / BBR

I had to listen to much of this twice and take a few notes. (Probably the first 20 minutes is most relevant) From what I gathered the experiment compares 3 different extract brewing methods

1 - Partial Extract Boil (All extract boiled and adding water later) (Lab result 61 IBU's)
2 - Partial Late Addition Extract Boil with extract and water added late (Lab result 57 IBU's)
3 - Full Wort Boil (Lab result 66 IBU's)

What it doesn't do is measure the same extract recipe as opposed to the same recipe from All Grain. However it does note differing levels of Trub were left in the kettle in all instances. So it may have some validity but probably none would be anywhere near the trub we get in All Grain. IBU's in all 3 methods were measured in a lab where within a few points of each other. (In brackets above)


Anyway I think (hope) the first Podcast is what you referred to Pat. If so I'll try contact John Palmer and see what he says.

It would be nice to be able to have an actual lab test done on a selection of the Recipes in BCS. Compare Extract V All Grain and measure the IBU's analytically. But thats beyond my scope (for now). Maybe something you Pat can convince James Spencer to take up one day ;)

Found
Another article by John palmer confirming IBU's lost in trub. (towards the end of the article)
Last edited by bundy on 05 Nov 2014, 09:20, edited 2 times in total.
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