In bob the brewers post people were talking about covering their gas heated kettles to keep the temperature in. I did this on my last brew and the temps were maintaining good when I would just lift the blanket a little and check. The very instant I took the blanket completely off and checked the temps they would come crashing down and I would have to add heat. For some reason I ended up assuming I was getting false readings on my thermometer because of the blanket trapping in hot air. But after reading that post maybe I was wrong. Maybe it was maintaining temps in the wort just fine until I took the blanket off. It would be nice to hear that I should have just trusted the thermometer and left the blanket on since maintaining temps as been a PITA so far.
Also I ended up with an 85 percent efficiency on that brew up 15 percent from my first two. The differences was I abandoned step mashing and went with the suggest 90 minute single infusion. The only problem was I had an OG of 1.060 and ended up with an FG of 1.020. According to beer tools, and (limited) experience it should have gone lower than that.
Do you think that my trouble maintaining temps that day ended up in a cooler mash and less fermentable wort?
thanks
Post #2 made 15 years ago
Can you post your ingredients and expected o.g.
By calculation that is only a 66% attuenation (i think) it does seem a little low.
I'm surprised that there is such a dramatic drop in temp by just lifting up the cover. How much did the temp drop?
If you can post this info up, one of the old hands should be able to help you a bit better than I can.
I'm sure we will nut it out for you (eventually
)
By calculation that is only a 66% attuenation (i think) it does seem a little low.
I'm surprised that there is such a dramatic drop in temp by just lifting up the cover. How much did the temp drop?
If you can post this info up, one of the old hands should be able to help you a bit better than I can.
I'm sure we will nut it out for you (eventually
)[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]
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[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
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Post #3 made 15 years ago
If taking the lid off drops the mash temp so much then I doubt that you are accurately measuring the temp of the entire mash. I don't think you can really measure the mash temp properly without stirring it. How are you taking the temperature?
For the second part of your question, IF you got a lower mash temp than you wanted or expected then you would expect a more fermentable wort (with a lower FG). So no, your higher than expected FG is not a result of not maintaining a high enough temp. I am wondering if it is a result of how you measure the mash temp so give us a few more details and we will see if we can help.
For the second part of your question, IF you got a lower mash temp than you wanted or expected then you would expect a more fermentable wort (with a lower FG). So no, your higher than expected FG is not a result of not maintaining a high enough temp. I am wondering if it is a result of how you measure the mash temp so give us a few more details and we will see if we can help.
Post #4 made 15 years ago
Dry Irish Stout:
90 minute mash at 152
5.5 pounds Maris Otter
2 pounds flaked barley
1 pound roasted barley
I can't remember how well I maintained temps it was a couple weeks ago now. I would like to say +/- 5 but it may have been more like +/- 7 or 8.
WYEAST 1084 Irish Ale Yeast optimum temp 62-72 F
If I had done the 70% efficiency I had in the previous brews I would have had an OG of about 10.42, but getting a higher OG was definitely not a problem with me.
At first I thought the low attenuation was because it was a stout and that's just the way they are. But when Beertools.com thought I should have a much lower FG (10.12) I decided to ask you guys.
Also another factor was that this beer was slower to start bubbling in the airlock than others I have done. I got up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night and it still wasn't going. My house was in the high 60s' so I thought that would be good. But at that point, just in case I put the beer in a bucket of water and wrapped it with a wet towel. It soon was bubbling away, though that only lasted for about a day and a half of good activity. I guess I could put it back in the bucket of water and see what happens. But it had just about stopped bubbling when I took it out of the water. I am pretty sure it is done attenuating because I got the reading of 1.020 again 5 days after my first reading.
Finally it did taste good after just one week, and still has an ABV of 4% so I am pretty happy with it.
P.S. I ended up with only 4 gallons instead of the 5 I was shooting for so I topped off with boiled and cooled water to bring it up to 5. And that is when I got my measured 1.050 OG.
OK I started writing this essay before dick responded so in response to him:
I use a KM 12 digital thermometer. I was thinking that maybe the loss of temp was because my kettle is so big and made of aluminum, it is a whole 60qter. Maybe my false bottom is too high and the temps beneath are higher, it is a pretty high seafood/tamale steaming rack.
90 minute mash at 152
5.5 pounds Maris Otter
2 pounds flaked barley
1 pound roasted barley
I can't remember how well I maintained temps it was a couple weeks ago now. I would like to say +/- 5 but it may have been more like +/- 7 or 8.
WYEAST 1084 Irish Ale Yeast optimum temp 62-72 F
If I had done the 70% efficiency I had in the previous brews I would have had an OG of about 10.42, but getting a higher OG was definitely not a problem with me.
At first I thought the low attenuation was because it was a stout and that's just the way they are. But when Beertools.com thought I should have a much lower FG (10.12) I decided to ask you guys.
Also another factor was that this beer was slower to start bubbling in the airlock than others I have done. I got up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night and it still wasn't going. My house was in the high 60s' so I thought that would be good. But at that point, just in case I put the beer in a bucket of water and wrapped it with a wet towel. It soon was bubbling away, though that only lasted for about a day and a half of good activity. I guess I could put it back in the bucket of water and see what happens. But it had just about stopped bubbling when I took it out of the water. I am pretty sure it is done attenuating because I got the reading of 1.020 again 5 days after my first reading.
Finally it did taste good after just one week, and still has an ABV of 4% so I am pretty happy with it.
P.S. I ended up with only 4 gallons instead of the 5 I was shooting for so I topped off with boiled and cooled water to bring it up to 5. And that is when I got my measured 1.050 OG.
OK I started writing this essay before dick responded so in response to him:
I use a KM 12 digital thermometer. I was thinking that maybe the loss of temp was because my kettle is so big and made of aluminum, it is a whole 60qter. Maybe my false bottom is too high and the temps beneath are higher, it is a pretty high seafood/tamale steaming rack.
Post #6 made 15 years ago
Aluminium will lose heat quickly.
Stirring while adding heat is a good thing. Stirring before taking a temperature reading is also important.
Keep doing this method for a couple of brews, checking the temperature now and again, until you are happy that the temperature is reasonably stable. Once you are happy with the stability, just wrap it up and leave it alone for 90 minutes.
Stirring while adding heat is a good thing. Stirring before taking a temperature reading is also important.
Keep doing this method for a couple of brews, checking the temperature now and again, until you are happy that the temperature is reasonably stable. Once you are happy with the stability, just wrap it up and leave it alone for 90 minutes.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #7 made 15 years ago
So Hashie...
Do you think it was maintaining temps ok with the blanket on it and than just losing temperature that fast? That kind of makes sense to me when I look back on it. I can't remember what made we want to take the blanket off in the first place right now.
Do you think it was maintaining temps ok with the blanket on it and than just losing temperature that fast? That kind of makes sense to me when I look back on it. I can't remember what made we want to take the blanket off in the first place right now.
Post #8 made 15 years ago
It's possible, I find, when I used to check during the mash, that the temperature wasn't accurate unless the wort was stirred.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #9 made 15 years ago
Well...I guess I can lift the blanket just a little bit to get the stir spoon in, and stir before checking the temp. I guess I'll do that next time and hopefully it works well and I can chill out on checking the temps so much
thanks
thanks
Post #10 made 15 years ago
Hi there jr,
I've read this thread a few times since you posted it and keep re-reading your first three sentences.
I've looked up your thermometer and what I reckon might be happening is when you lifted the blanket a little, the steam from the mash may have affected your thermometer's ability to read.
I could be quite wrong on this
but I am very suss about thermometers. If you search my posts here looking for the word, 'thermometer,' you'll see this page 
. Amongst all that, you'll also see why I am suss.
If every brewer was only allowed one thermometer, the one I would tell them to get is this one...
They are very cheap and usually accurate to within a degree at all relevant brewing temps. Many others I have seen are all over the place and often 5 C out. So, I reckon grab one of these and play around with your digital so as to determine what conditions it works well under.
Cheers jr,
PP
I've read this thread a few times since you posted it and keep re-reading your first three sentences.
I've looked up your thermometer and what I reckon might be happening is when you lifted the blanket a little, the steam from the mash may have affected your thermometer's ability to read.
I could be quite wrong on this
but I am very suss about thermometers. If you search my posts here looking for the word, 'thermometer,' you'll see this page . Amongst all that, you'll also see why I am suss.If every brewer was only allowed one thermometer, the one I would tell them to get is this one...
They are very cheap and usually accurate to within a degree at all relevant brewing temps. Many others I have seen are all over the place and often 5 C out. So, I reckon grab one of these and play around with your digital so as to determine what conditions it works well under.
Cheers jr,
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Dec 2010, 20:01, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #11 made 15 years ago
Yeah exactly what I thought might be happening with the steam.
I looked around on aussie homebrewing and wasn't able to find that thermometer. Do you know where to find one?
Also the temperatures have changed quite a bit here in the past couple weeks. The outside air is below freezing today. So I was thinking with these temperatures I may need to have a little continuous heat added to keep the temperatures constant.
My plan was to practice maintaining temperature with plain water in my kettle to find out what works. Do you think that is a good idea, or a waste of time because having grain in the kettle will change things?
I looked around on aussie homebrewing and wasn't able to find that thermometer. Do you know where to find one?
Also the temperatures have changed quite a bit here in the past couple weeks. The outside air is below freezing today. So I was thinking with these temperatures I may need to have a little continuous heat added to keep the temperatures constant.
My plan was to practice maintaining temperature with plain water in my kettle to find out what works. Do you think that is a good idea, or a waste of time because having grain in the kettle will change things?
Post #12 made 15 years ago
Well I went to my local homebrew store and bought a thermometer with a long probe and a round dial. They told me it would be accurate for getting the core mash temp, and not be influenced by steam. After practicing with water my old digital thermometer reads about 2.5-3 degrees warmer then the round dial. And I have concluded I was just losing temperatures very quickly with the blanket removed. I could maintain 120F indefinitely with a blanket. Trying to maintain temps from 150-160F (normal mash temps) was not so easy. Even with a blanket I was losing temperature in just 15 minutes.
I tried turning my burner down real low to maintain 155F but it did not work. The flame was either too hot or so small it would go out. I went ahead and bought a lid for my kettle (That is right I have not had a lid this whole time, I am that cheap). There was a lot of steam escaping through the top of the blanket so I am hoping that solves the problem. I will report back when I have tried it with a lid attached. If I still can't maintain temps with the lid I will try wrapping my kettle with some insulating material.
I tried turning my burner down real low to maintain 155F but it did not work. The flame was either too hot or so small it would go out. I went ahead and bought a lid for my kettle (That is right I have not had a lid this whole time, I am that cheap). There was a lot of steam escaping through the top of the blanket so I am hoping that solves the problem. I will report back when I have tried it with a lid attached. If I still can't maintain temps with the lid I will try wrapping my kettle with some insulating material.
Post #13 made 15 years ago
Ahh, a lid will make all the difference. I even go as far as putting a folded blanket on top of my lid to help reduce heat loss.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #14 made 15 years ago
yeah you probably sighed and shook your head when I said I didn't have a lid.
Post #15 made 15 years ago
No, but it did make it all make sense.
Sometimes the only way to learn is to make mistakes. Me, I've made plenty
Sometimes the only way to learn is to make mistakes. Me, I've made plenty
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #16 made 15 years ago
[quote="jrodie"]In bob the brewers post people were talking about covering their gas heated kettles to keep the temperature in.
jrodie,
Sorry, I have just noticed your post. I have a 40 litre electric urn and have insulated it with a camping mat. After doughing in I pull a sleeping bag over the whole deal. I have a temperature monitor with a probe which sits six inches into the liquid. I can leave this in the liquid (or mash, not sure of the correct description of this part of the brew) and the lead is long enough to keep an eye on the temp throughout the mash. Even sitting in the top of the gunk I usually only lose one degree Celsius over a 90 min mash. Hope this helps,
Bob
jrodie,
Sorry, I have just noticed your post. I have a 40 litre electric urn and have insulated it with a camping mat. After doughing in I pull a sleeping bag over the whole deal. I have a temperature monitor with a probe which sits six inches into the liquid. I can leave this in the liquid (or mash, not sure of the correct description of this part of the brew) and the lead is long enough to keep an eye on the temp throughout the mash. Even sitting in the top of the gunk I usually only lose one degree Celsius over a 90 min mash. Hope this helps,
Bob
Post #17 made 15 years ago
I thought about making a new thread, but thought this was related enough. It's currently about 0 degrees F here in Minnesota, I plan to brew this Saturday in my garage, which is not insulated or heated. Will I be okay just using a sleeping bag to insulate during the mash? Would it be better to not stir or check the temp during the mash with it being that cold in my garage? I could also mash on my stovetop using 2 burners, but then I have to carry 8-9 gallons outside to boil on my turkey fryer...my stove can barely bring that much water to a boil or I'd brew inside in the winter. I'll have a friend or two that can help me carry it if you guys think mashing inside is the best option.
Post #18 made 15 years ago
I have yet to try it. I just had a baby girl a couple days ago. So I promised no brewing until the new year. But here is a link to some cheapish insulating material they have at wal-mart. If you do try it let me how it goes. I was thinking of making like a sock out of it that fit snugly around the pot so I could take it off for boiling and cooling.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Duck-Brand-Re ... t/15077945
You could always experiment with some plain water, I do think I learned something from that.
Oh yeah and GO VIKINGS!!
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Duck-Brand-Re ... t/15077945
You could always experiment with some plain water, I do think I learned something from that.
Oh yeah and GO VIKINGS!!
Post #19 made 15 years ago
That insulation looks pretty good jrodie, I'd like to hear from someone who has used it.
natept, I say brew in your garage. Once you have your mash temp right, insulate, put a lid on and insulate again. Come back in 60 - 90 minutes and go from there. Even if you drop 2 - 4 C it wont have a great deal of bearing on the brew as most conversion takes place in the first 20 minutes.
Also, think of the dangers of carrying 8-9 gallons of hot mash!
natept, I say brew in your garage. Once you have your mash temp right, insulate, put a lid on and insulate again. Come back in 60 - 90 minutes and go from there. Even if you drop 2 - 4 C it wont have a great deal of bearing on the brew as most conversion takes place in the first 20 minutes.
Also, think of the dangers of carrying 8-9 gallons of hot mash!
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #20 made 15 years ago
Hashie, I am on to you ;
You are brewing at O degrees F (- 18 degrees C)!!!!! I can't even imagine what that is like
.
I think your conditions pose a problem that we Aussies are not going to be able to advise you well in. I doubt insulation will be enough....
I suspect if I brewed in such temperatures, I'd seriously look at making up an insulation "cover" that you can quickly put over and remove from your kettle. I say 'cover' because most of the temp will escape through your lid. And I say 'quickly' because under these conditions, I expect and Newton's Thermodynamic Laws (can't remember which one) will tell us, that heat is going to disappear very quickly.
Another possibility under your conditions would be to have a false bottom on your kettle bottom and continually apply heat during the mash.
Final suggestions are to move to Australia or start drinking vodka. Natept, please post your conditions and how you go in this thread. I am looking forward to hearing what you come up with.
PP
natept, Hashie doesn't disturb his mash once it is under way. I do. I think hashie's idea has a lot of merit and I do intend to try it BUT... I am not brewing under your conditions...natept wrote:I thought about making a new thread, but thought this was related enough. It's currently about 0 degrees F here in Minnesota, I plan to brew this Saturday in my garage, which is not insulated or heated. Will I be okay just using a sleeping bag to insulate during the mash? Would it be better to not stir or check the temp during the mash with it being that cold in my garage?...
You are brewing at O degrees F (- 18 degrees C)!!!!! I can't even imagine what that is like
.I think your conditions pose a problem that we Aussies are not going to be able to advise you well in. I doubt insulation will be enough....
I suspect if I brewed in such temperatures, I'd seriously look at making up an insulation "cover" that you can quickly put over and remove from your kettle. I say 'cover' because most of the temp will escape through your lid. And I say 'quickly' because under these conditions, I expect and Newton's Thermodynamic Laws (can't remember which one) will tell us, that heat is going to disappear very quickly.
Another possibility under your conditions would be to have a false bottom on your kettle bottom and continually apply heat during the mash.
Final suggestions are to move to Australia or start drinking vodka. Natept, please post your conditions and how you go in this thread. I am looking forward to hearing what you come up with.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Dec 2010, 21:06, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #21 made 15 years ago
I have been very busy, but finally have had a chance to try the insulation material that I mentioned earlier in this thread. And I submit this for your amusement.
I just did some experimenting with plain water. Here are my results for those that are interested.
First I finally got a lid. Using the lid and a blanket for insulation I still lost about 20F in 30 minutes, dropping from 150F to 130F.
I then tried the insulation material. On my first attempt I only cut out a piece big enough to just barely wrap around the pot, and another piece to put on the lid. I held the insulation in place with binder clips. It was hard to get the insulation material to wrap neatly around the pot using this method. The temperature stayed constant for a little longer but still not what I was hoping for.
On my second attempt I decided to use much more of the insulation material so I could more easily pull the material tight around the kettle. This method was not only easier but worked better to. After 30 minutes there was no change in temperature. After 90 minutes I had lost 10F but I am satisfied with that.
The temperature was unseasonably warm today at 40F. But I think that I could mash with confidence with below freezing temps using this method.
In conclusion if anyone else out there is like me and as a big thin walled aluminum kettle and relatively cold outside temps, if you get yourself some good insulating material you should be just fine.
P.S. If you use the same duck brand insulating material that I did, do not heat the pot with the material attached. It will almost instantly melt.
I just did some experimenting with plain water. Here are my results for those that are interested.
First I finally got a lid. Using the lid and a blanket for insulation I still lost about 20F in 30 minutes, dropping from 150F to 130F.
I then tried the insulation material. On my first attempt I only cut out a piece big enough to just barely wrap around the pot, and another piece to put on the lid. I held the insulation in place with binder clips. It was hard to get the insulation material to wrap neatly around the pot using this method. The temperature stayed constant for a little longer but still not what I was hoping for.
On my second attempt I decided to use much more of the insulation material so I could more easily pull the material tight around the kettle. This method was not only easier but worked better to. After 30 minutes there was no change in temperature. After 90 minutes I had lost 10F but I am satisfied with that.
The temperature was unseasonably warm today at 40F. But I think that I could mash with confidence with below freezing temps using this method.
In conclusion if anyone else out there is like me and as a big thin walled aluminum kettle and relatively cold outside temps, if you get yourself some good insulating material you should be just fine.
P.S. If you use the same duck brand insulating material that I did, do not heat the pot with the material attached. It will almost instantly melt.
Post #22 made 15 years ago
Well done jrodie, it's amazing what a difference insulating your pot can make.
lol on melting the insulation I always turn my burner off before adding the insulation, sometimes it melts a little if I get it too close to the burners straight away. So I try and keep it 50 - 100 mm above the bottom of the pot, just to be sure.
lol on melting the insulation
I always turn my burner off before adding the insulation, sometimes it melts a little if I get it too close to the burners straight away. So I try and keep it 50 - 100 mm above the bottom of the pot, just to be sure."It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
