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How do you Reduce Hot Break?

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Hi all

My next brew will be a BIAB as I'm trying to simplify my method and hopefully track down a background flavour that is present in all my beers, regardless of type. I'm certain it's not infection by the way. I read an article on eHow about a flavour that hot break material can impart on the beer once it starts to break down in the fermenter. The author didn't describe the taste but said that using several layers of cheese cloth as a filter will filter the break out before it gets to the F.V.
Any info you all might have would be a great help :salute:

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 18 Nov 2010, 07:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome to the forum sd,

Some flavours can be quite elusive to track down and you may have to resign yourself to doing several brews to find it.

Maybe the best way of testing your hot break theory would be to source two containers you can use as mini-fermenters and then put half your batch in one (using the cheese cloth) and then half in the other.

Once fermented, bottle the beer rather than keg it.

Doing this will be annoying but it will eliminate all your existing equipment apart from your kettle and its tap which gives you a wealth of information.

Can you describe the flavour? Do you occasionally get a brew without it?

:luck: with tracking it down. Hope you find the bugger quickly,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 Nov 2010, 23:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Hi Tom and a warm welcome! :drink:

Isolating particular flavours and their origins can be a very complex issue to nut out, we really need some descriptors. Is it "home brew twang" perhaps, cardboard, dusty, medicinal etc?

With break filtering, yes, it can sometimes be problematic but not a huge obstacle. You can run the wort through any sort of filter, it is probably best to not do this while it is hot*, so when cooled obviously the sanitation needs to be scrupulous. Simple and quick appeals to me, the simplest means I can come up with for beginners (and I still use it all the time too!) is a large sieve, that link is not a great example but using whole hops instead of pellets really works brilliantly and is very efficient in that it allows just about every single drop of wort to be collected. Obviously this is best with a small kettle/ stockpot and needs to be chilled beforehand. I'm actually testing a new colander tonight, same sort of idea though.
There's other means to avoid hot break, whirlpooling, various pickups etc, but they are often more specific to the particular kettle. Using a flocculant such as Koppafloc or Whirlfoc as well should help to aggregate it, so does a longer boil.

Hope we can work this one out, pretty sure between us we can get to the bottom of it! :P

* HSA- Hot Side Aeration is largely a myth at homebrewing scales.
Last edited by Ralph on 15 Nov 2010, 07:20, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #4 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Hi PP

The only brew that I can remember without the " taste " was a Guinness clone that I did over 20 years ago. I was young and followed Dave Line's method virtually to the letter. The only major difference I can remember was that I racked into a secondary fermenter and rested for a week or two before bottling. It turned out spectacularly but I think I got a bit cocky and started cutting out the rest period. I realise that while not essential, a rest can improve flavour a bit. Before you ask, I've not actually tried doing it again as I can now pick up the tell tale smell in the fermenter when I barrel the beer now.
The only other beers that have ever been free of the taste have been the kits that I did when I restarted the craft about 18 months ago. It's not just when grain is involved either, my earlier extract brews were also inflicted. It doesn't make the beer undrinkable but I'd much rather be rid of it. I've tasted the exact same flavour in some of the beers that Adnams ( U.K. brewer ) brew.
I've did suspect my water so my most recent brew was done with bottled still water from the supermarket. Just put it in the barrel tonight and as I was cleaning the F.V. out I caught a whiff of it so I'm not that hopefull :sad:
My method has always allowed most of the break into the F.V so that's what triggered the question after I read that article.......

Cheers Tom
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Post #5 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Hi Ralph

I plan on using my voile bag as a filter next time I brew, that should take most of it out. I do use Irish moss in my boil and previously all I did was simply tip through a large collander after cooling in the sink but it was a bit of a non starter really as the few holes it had in it soon blocked with spent hops and the flow stopped.
As for the flavour itself, I can't really pin it down as anything specific. There are plenty of lists on the net that explain the various causes and remedies for most. The nearest I could say it is would be stewed old hops. But that's not really that close so I wouldn't take that as correct......

Cheers Tom
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Post #7 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Hi sigurdur
sigurdur wrote:Welcome Tom! :)

You say stewed old hops .. do you use old hops? (buy in bulk so they age)
Is your fermentation vigorous?
Do you use the same fermentation vessels?
How is your sanitation practice, do you use the same type of sanitizer in the same amount?
Can you replace your boiling kettle for a brew?

Hope some of this helps :)
It was just a turn of phrase, the hops I use are all from vaccuum packs. All stored in the freezer after use....
I don't think I've ever had a really vigorous ferment but the job is usually done within 7 days with either s-04 or Nottingham yeast.....
I do use the same F.V. but I use one of those bleach based cleaner/sterilizers and always rinse well before use.....
My boiler is a stainless steel 15 ltr stock pot but during my earlier period of brewing I had a purpose built 5 gallon plastic boiler with thermostat....
As doubt it's an infecton as it only appears when I brew from grain/extract and hops. Kits have always been " fine "

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 15 Nov 2010, 08:07, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #8 made 15 years ago
by stux
soupdragon wrote:Hi PP

The only brew that I can remember without the " taste " was a Guinness clone that I did over 20 years ago. I was young and followed Dave Line's method virtually to the letter. The only major difference I can remember was that I racked into a secondary fermenter and rested for a week or two before bottling. It turned out spectacularly but I think I got a bit cocky and started cutting out the rest period. I realise that while not essential, a rest can improve flavour a bit. Before you ask, I've not actually tried doing it again as I can now pick up the tell tale smell in the fermenter when I barrel the beer now.
The only other beers that have ever been free of the taste have been the kits that I did when I restarted the craft about 18 months ago. It's not just when grain is involved either, my earlier extract brews were also inflicted. It doesn't make the beer undrinkable but I'd much rather be rid of it. I've tasted the exact same flavour in some of the beers that Adnams ( U.K. brewer ) brew.
I've did suspect my water so my most recent brew was done with bottled still water from the supermarket. Just put it in the barrel tonight and as I was cleaning the F.V. out I caught a whiff of it so I'm not that hopefull :sad:
My method has always allowed most of the break into the F.V so that's what triggered the question after I read that article.......

Cheers Tom
If you have a flavour which was even present with kits, then its probably a fermentation issue.

My advise would be to go back to the basics, and perfect your fermentation technique. A good way to do that would be to buy high quality Full Wort Kits, not sure if you can find an alternative if you're not in Australia.

Learn to ferment those without your flavour that you have a problem with, then go back to the grain.

You want to make sure you're doing a temperature controlled ferment, you want to do a long conditioning stage to allow the yeast to re-consume their own by-products, and some yeast have subtle flavours which you may be detecting... try a different yeast. If you find a yeast you like, then use that one.

Once you manage a few brews that you're happy with with Good Quality wort kits, then you might want to try the All-grain again.

Also, if you're bottling, then the yeast sediment in the bottles and the priming sugar can impart a subtle flavour... some like it... some don't. I find kegged bear is much crisper.

Oh, and Fermentation Vessel, if its plastic... I've had plastic fermenters go bad after 10+ years. I would recommend replacing your plastic fermenters every 10 years :), beer that tastes like essence of tupperware, not so good :)
Last edited by stux on 15 Nov 2010, 10:15, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #9 made 15 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
soupdragon wrote:I plan on using my voile bag as a filter next time I brew, that should take most of it out.
Pinning down an off flavor can be very difficult and I can't offer any help on that issue.

My most recent brew day I used some voile material to line a large funnel and poured everything from my boil kettle through there. If you try this, realize that it will clog VERY QUICKLY. I brew 2.5 gal batches and I had to clean out the material 4 times. I couldn't tell if it worked well at filtering (it was very dark oatmeal stout and couldn't see if the wort was clear or cloudy). If it's clear wort your looking for, you may be better doing a whirlpool and siphoning off clear wort, but there are plenty of guys around here who will tell you that clear wort into the fermenter isn't necessary. But if it'll help you nail down your off flavor, then it's worth a try.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 15 Nov 2010, 11:20, edited 5 times in total.

Post #11 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
I think there is a wealth of great advice above. Probably way too much.

For example, when I see...
sigurdur wrote:I don't think I've ever had a really vigorous ferment but the job is usually done within 7 days with either s-04 or Nottingham yeast.....
... my mind automatically goes, "Tell him not to use S-04 or Nottingham because I have tasted a heap of crap beers brewed on those yeasts."

So, here am I telling you not to use those yeasts when you brew if you are experiencing a problem. For me, these yeasts are very unreliable at producing a drinkable beer. Many others will disagree and lot of others will agree.

Use SO-5 and recipes that suit it as it is a very reliable yeast.

I can't see a single bad post above - every one of them impresses me, truly.

The best I can see though is stux's, because his allows you another method of greatly narrowing down and identifying the culprit.

I'm pretty sensitive about this off-flavour issue because I had it and it took me three years to track it down to one faulty keg weld. In that time I still won prizes in competitions but honestly, this one fault meant that I enjoyed very few beers from my brewing. I am a meticulous brewer (cleanliness-wise) and it was only pure luck that I finally found the fault.

So, a rough weld may be your problem but it probably isn't. I don't think hot break will be an issue either. So, where do you start? I think a perfectly good place to start is back at Post #2 of this thread.

Is there a quicker way of solving this?

And here's the real problem, in most cases, even one brew won't give you a final answer.

Spot,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Nov 2010, 22:13, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
sigurdur wrote:I buy hops in 1 lb vacuum sealed packs. Some varieties of hops last a long time and may go stale.

Do you use some way of containing hops (hop-bags)?

Since you mentioned that this only happens when you do full-time boils (not kits), do you always brew in the same spot?

What may happen is that condensation may occur on whatever is above the pot.
A friend of mine boils on his beers stove and has a hood that vents the air/steam out. On one of his brews, the SS filter had so much condensation that it actually dripped a lot of liquid (with who knows what) into the beer. After that he always removes the filters before he brews.

I brew on the stove top with the hops loose and leave the lid off my stockpot. The area is quite well ventilated so there's no condensation :)

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 16 Nov 2010, 05:42, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #13 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
stux wrote:
soupdragon wrote:Hi PP

The only brew that I can remember without the " taste " was a Guinness clone that I did over 20 years ago. I was young and followed Dave Line's method virtually to the letter. The only major difference I can remember was that I racked into a secondary fermenter and rested for a week or two before bottling. It turned out spectacularly but I think I got a bit cocky and started cutting out the rest period. I realise that while not essential, a rest can improve flavour a bit. Before you ask, I've not actually tried doing it again as I can now pick up the tell tale smell in the fermenter when I barrel the beer now.
The only other beers that have ever been free of the taste have been the kits that I did when I restarted the craft about 18 months ago. It's not just when grain is involved either, my earlier extract brews were also inflicted. It doesn't make the beer undrinkable but I'd much rather be rid of it. I've tasted the exact same flavour in some of the beers that Adnams ( U.K. brewer ) brew.
I've did suspect my water so my most recent brew was done with bottled still water from the supermarket. Just put it in the barrel tonight and as I was cleaning the F.V. out I caught a whiff of it so I'm not that hopefull :sad:
My method has always allowed most of the break into the F.V so that's what triggered the question after I read that article.......

Cheers Tom
If you have a flavour which was even present with kits, then its probably a fermentation issue.

My advise would be to go back to the basics, and perfect your fermentation technique. A good way to do that would be to buy high quality Full Wort Kits, not sure if you can find an alternative if you're not in Australia.

Learn to ferment those without your flavour that you have a problem with, then go back to the grain.

You want to make sure you're doing a temperature controlled ferment, you want to do a long conditioning stage to allow the yeast to re-consume their own by-products, and some yeast have subtle flavours which you may be detecting... try a different yeast. If you find a yeast you like, then use that one.

Once you manage a few brews that you're happy with with Good Quality wort kits, then you might want to try the All-grain again.

Also, if you're bottling, then the yeast sediment in the bottles and the priming sugar can impart a subtle flavour... some like it... some don't. I find kegged bear is much crisper.

Oh, and Fermentation Vessel, if its plastic... I've had plastic fermenters go bad after 10+ years. I would recommend replacing your plastic fermenters every 10 years :), beer that tastes like essence of tupperware, not so good :)

Hi stux

I can make kits without a problem, no sign of the taste at all. I's only when I use grain/dried extract and hops that it appears :sad:

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 16 Nov 2010, 05:47, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #14 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
BrickBrewHaus wrote:
soupdragon wrote:I plan on using my voile bag as a filter next time I brew, that should take most of it out.
Pinning down an off flavor can be very difficult and I can't offer any help on that issue.

My most recent brew day I used some voile material to line a large funnel and poured everything from my boil kettle through there. If you try this, realize that it will clog VERY QUICKLY. I brew 2.5 gal batches and I had to clean out the material 4 times. I couldn't tell if it worked well at filtering (it was very dark oatmeal stout and couldn't see if the wort was clear or cloudy). If it's clear wort your looking for, you may be better doing a whirlpool and siphoning off clear wort, but there are plenty of guys around here who will tell you that clear wort into the fermenter isn't necessary. But if it'll help you nail down your off flavor, then it's worth a try.
Hi BrickBrewHaus

I'll bear that in mind when I transfer to my F.V. I was hoping that if I tip it gently rather than dumping it through, I might be able to get most of wort through clear before the muck starts to flow?

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 16 Nov 2010, 05:53, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #15 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Hi EoinMag
EoinMag wrote:Is the problem possibly DMS? Do you have a lid on during the boil at all?
I always boil with the lid off.........

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 16 Nov 2010, 05:55, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #16 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
sigurdur wrote:
PistolPatch wrote:
sigurdur wrote:I don't think I've ever had a really vigorous ferment but the job is usually done within 7 days with either s-04 or Nottingham yeast.....
Actually, this is an incorrect quote as I did not say this (sorry for being an anally PC guy) ;)
PistolPatch wrote: ... my mind automatically goes, "Tell him not to use S-04 or Nottingham because I have tasted a heap of crap beers brewed on those yeasts."

So, here am I telling you not to use those yeasts when you brew if you are experiencing a problem. For me, these yeasts are very unreliable at producing a drinkable beer. Many others will disagree and lot of others will agree.

Use SO-5 and recipes that suit it as it is a very reliable yeast.
Good point PP.

soupdragon, PP has a valid point with the yeast selection. Many have reported that nottingham and s-04 are very similar if fermented at the ale temperatures. I find that Nottingham produces a cleaner beer but they both seem to give off similar esters. Maybe that is what you are tasting.

I take the point about the yeast, it was next on my list of things to try after the bottled water and filtering through voile. I don't want to change too many things at once for fear of not actually being able to pin down the actual cause ( presuming I do that is ).....
I only brew every 2-3 months so this may take some time :sad:

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 16 Nov 2010, 06:02, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #17 made 15 years ago
by Two If By Sea
What are your fermentation temperatures? The whole Notty flavor thing for me is bogus. The overwhelming majority of my beers are Notty or S-05 yeasts and my beer is fine. (that is with the exception of that nasty recall issue with Notty recently) I use other yeasts when a clean ferment isn't what I need and a special character you get from a specific yeast is needed. But...I also control my temperatures and keep them down in the low 60's (F). I have found that high 60s/low 70s with either of those yeasts you can get some off flavors. I also let my beers sit in primary for 4 weeks to clean up any mess they left.
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Post #18 made 15 years ago
by outbreak
I haven't used Nottingham but I was getting some really weird flavours from US-05 without controlled fermentation, (I love my STC-1000 apart from going AG its been the best thing I have done for my brewing)

Post #19 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Two If By Sea wrote:What are your fermentation temperatures? The whole Notty flavor thing for me is bogus. The overwhelming majority of my beers are Notty or S-05 yeasts and my beer is fine. (that is with the exception of that nasty recall issue with Notty recently) I use other yeasts when a clean ferment isn't what I need and a special character you get from a specific yeast is needed. But...I also control my temperatures and keep them down in the low 60's (F). I have found that high 60s/low 70s with either of those yeasts you can get some off flavors. I also let my beers sit in primary for 4 weeks to clean up any mess they left.
Hi Two If By Sea

Ferment is usually between 65 and 70 ish. What off flavours have you had at these temps?

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 17 Nov 2010, 05:08, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #21 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
soupdragon wrote:Hi PP...

It's not just when grain is involved either, my earlier extract brews were also inflicted.

Cheers Tom
This thread really interests me Tom as I have been caught in the same frustrating situation. Only just finished, 'work,' and decided to re-read this thread for some relaxation/mental challenge ;).

I know I wrote a lot above and I am happy with what I have written. (I only sporadically get time to write here and then it is always too much I'm sure - lol).

But, I think I missed something. It may be nothing but it is definitely worth checking before you brew again.

I just searched this thread for, "tap," and see that I didn't entirely miss it but I didn't emphasise it. I think there is a good chance that your problem might be in your kettle tap/spigot. (If you want further info on this, searching my posts for "tap" or "spigot" should yield an essay or two :))

So, I suggest that you attach a hose to your kettle tap (assuming you have one) and put the other end, "up your nose," and inhale. If it smells bad in any way to you or anyone else then pull the tap apart completely and smell the parts during the dismantle. I think you should do this anyway just to be sure.

After re-reading the bit I have quoted above, I strongly suspect that doing this might reveal the problem. If you have a kettle tap, it certainly should be the first consideration.

:peace: PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Nov 2010, 22:56, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #22 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
One more thought that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned...

If your BIAB method requires transferring hot wort, use silicone hose. A lot of hoses out there will impart shocking flavours to your beer despite what they tell you the temperature/food-grade rating is. I have experienced this twice so only now go silicone.
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Post #23 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
Two If By Sea wrote:A hard to describe funk. Definitely some form of an ester. Nothing terribly strong but just underneath the flavors. I was running into it on my beers and I was trying everything I could think of. I finally started to use a swamp cooler and the taste went away.
Is that one of those fan things that draw water over a pad? I presume you just point it at your F.V.?

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 18 Nov 2010, 06:52, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #24 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
PistolPatch wrote:
soupdragon wrote:Hi PP...

It's not just when grain is involved either, my earlier extract brews were also inflicted.

Cheers Tom
This thread really interests me Tom as I have been caught in the same frustrating situation. Only just finished, 'work,' and decided to re-read this thread for some relaxation/mental challenge ;).

I know I wrote a lot above and I am happy with what I have written. (I only sporadically get time to write here and then it is always too much I'm sure - lol).

But, I think I missed something. It may be nothing but it is definitely worth checking before you brew again.

I just searched this thread for, "tap," and see that I didn't entirely miss it but I didn't emphasise it. I think there is a good chance that your problem might be in your kettle tap/spigot. (If you want further info on this, searching my posts for "tap" or "spigot" should yield an essay or two :))

So, I suggest that you attach a hose to your kettle tap (assuming you have one) and put the other end, "up your nose," and inhale. If it smells bad in any way to you or anyone else then pull the tap apart completely and smell the parts during the dismantle. I think you should do this anyway just to be sure.

After re-reading the bit I have quoted above, I strongly suspect that doing this might reveal the problem. If you have a kettle tap, it certainly should be the first consideration.

:peace: PP
I must admit that sometimes I waffle on like a good-un, so you feel free and write as much as you like :lol:
Sorry to say that my problem must lie elswhere as I don't have a tap on my boiler. I use a 15 ltr stockpot, pressed from a single sheet of stainless so no welds either.....
Just checked my beer stocks and I'll probable have to get another brew on within the next couple of weeks ( shifts and weekends away with the missus permitting ), so I'll get to give this new method a go :) I'll even risk trying to filter the wort through a spare bit of voile too to see if I can reduce the break material that's been going through to the fermenter. I must say that the yeast dregs/hot break that's left in the F.V. does usually smell of the taste, so fingers crossed it might improve things :pray:

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 18 Nov 2010, 07:03, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #25 made 15 years ago
by soupdragon
PistolPatch wrote:One more thought that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned...

If your BIAB method requires transferring hot wort, use silicone hose. A lot of hoses out there will impart shocking flavours to your beer despite what they tell you the temperature/food-grade rating is. I have experienced this twice so only now go silicone.
I just pour from my boiler into the F.V. but do siphon into my barrels. Not sure what the material is tho.....

Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 18 Nov 2010, 07:13, edited 5 times in total.
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