Post #826 made 12 years ago
I know that I'm probably making life difficult for myself but I only want to brew 11-12 liter batches. Would rather brew more often and try different recipes rather than be stuck drinking the more of the same beer if that makes sense?

Post #827 made 12 years ago
No worries Lee. I'm on to it.

I've just been doing some research on the linked site and some calculations to see where we are. They have a little recipe formulation tool, from that I've worked out that there Batch size is the End of boil volume.

So the 21L is the end of boil volume so insert that into the EOBV-A Cell.
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Post #830 made 12 years ago
Ok so I've filled everything out as best I can and have ordered grain based on this. I figured that this is my first BIAB, to be honest am expecting a few mistakes from it. So long as I have some half decent ale and some point of improvemnt at the end then I'll be more than happy.

Any feed back from this would be great.

Areas I'm still hazy on;

1. Mash temp (i'm going to have a look around the forums for to see what mash temp would suit this recipe)
2. Boil time (recipe states 90 min but have heard that some people believe a 60 min boil is good enough??)
3. Volumes (Only have a 19 ltr kettle so still need to figure out additions etc, but don't want to get too caught up on it)


Thanks again for the help,

Lee
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Post #831 made 12 years ago
I'm just going to do a few consecutive posts in a row to handle a couple of different questions. Before I do that, regarding BrewBagMan's BIABacus file above...

BBM, I just had a look and you have done that beautifully. Great stuff! I'll leave Yeasty to comment on mash temps and boil time but just wanted to let you know quickly that you've done really well.

:salute:
PP

P.S. Thanks for the feedback on the two pics earlier. Was chatting to Pat about this today and he'll do a post here that tries to explain why sections C to H in the current release have always not been quite right layout/logic-wise. Good luck to him - it's a difficult thing to explain.
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Post #832 made 12 years ago
2trout - forgot to say above that Liquor to Grain Ratio is in PR 1.1. It's at the bottom of the Maxi-BIAB Ajustements section because it was hard to find a place to put it and it's when you make Maxi-BIOAB Adjustemnts that it becomes most relevant.

There is also an, 'out of bounds' warning that will pop up if the amount of water that 'sees' the grain becomes too low.

So, hopefully this is all good :peace:.
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Post #833 made 12 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:I'm just going to do a few consecutive posts in a row to handle a couple of different questions. Before I do that, regarding BrewBagMan's BIABacus file above...

BBM, I just had a look and you have done that beautifully. Great stuff! I'll leave Yeasty to comment on mash temps and boil time but just wanted to let you know quickly that you've done really well.
Hi PP, I think the ones doing well are you guys for making the BIABacus so intuitive and user friendly! My trial with 'Beer Smith 2' is about to end but they can do a runner... BIABacus is now my primary weapon of choice. I'd rather give you guys my cash for all the work you do.

Thanks again,

Lee

P.S.

I prefer the second screen shot of the BIABacus
Last edited by BrewBagMan on 11 Jan 2013, 16:17, edited 9 times in total.

Post #834 made 12 years ago
[This post relates to questions asked in this thread by Skink]

Hi again Skink,

I've attached the BIABacus below with NRB's All Amarillo APA in it. I've used BIABAcus PR 1.1 but most of The Temporary Help posts will make sense with this version as well.

In the other thread, Yeasty mentioned about diluting into the fermentor. I think this is great advice for your first brew or two. Other Maxi-BIAB adjustments can make the brew day a bit messy and complicated.

Anyway...

1. Open the file and relax - lol!
2. Save it under a second name and play around with the second file.
3. Just take your time with it and the logic will fall into place with a bit of luck and maybe a beer ;).

As your kettle is small, pay particular attention to the Temporary Help post called Advanced Trub Management. In Section K, you'll see that I'm assuming you will be whirlpooling so as to reduce your Kettle to Fermentor Loss (KFL).

The next bit to have a look at is the Maxi-BIAB Adjustments section over towards the right. What I have done is played around with the numbers there as well as the VIF in Section B until no warnings popped up. You'll see that you'll have to hold back 8 L from the mash. Four of these litres you'll add back in during the boil as and when you can. The other four, you'll use to top up your fermentor. If your water is a bit crappy, play it safe and boil , then cool that water before you add it.

The end result of the juggle above is that you should get about 14 litres into your fermentor and about 13 litres of drinkable beer (Volume into Packaging (VIP) with not too much mucking about

There's a lot to take in here and I haven't explained things fully so just take your time and ask any questions you have.

Have fun :),
PP
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Post #835 made 12 years ago
BrewBagMan wrote:Areas I'm still hazy on;

1. Mash temp (i'm going to have a look around the forums for to see what mash temp would suit this recipe)
2. Boil time (recipe states 90 min but have heard that some people believe a 60 min boil is good enough??)
3. Volumes (Only have a 19 ltr kettle so still need to figure out additions etc, but don't want to get too caught up on it)
First of all well done on a great effort on the Biabacus :clap:

I'm a bit short of time as my day is just starting so forgive me if this is brief. :sneak:

Mash Temp: 66c is a good base temp for most ales and will suit the recipe perfectly.

Boil time: I'd up it to 90 minutes, ( I'd mash for 90 as well) the main reason is that you want to boil off the DMS ( Dimethyl Sulfide ) which can give your beer a cabbage/veggy edge. something you don't want in an ale. This will increase your boil off, so you will need to adjust your Maxi-Biab adjustments to make it work. You've already done this once( 7L held back) I see so just have a play around until you volumes look manageable.

Volumes: see above, You are doing a maxi now by the look of it. :lol: but the biabacus makes it easy.

Give it a go mate and let us know how you get on.

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 11 Jan 2013, 16:58, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #837 made 12 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:2trout - forgot to say above that Liquor to Grain Ratio is in PR 1.1. It's at the bottom of the Maxi-BIAB Ajustements section because it was hard to find a place to put it and it's when you make Maxi-BIOAB Adjustemnts that it becomes most relevant.

There is also an, 'out of bounds' warning that will pop up if the amount of water that 'sees' the grain becomes too low.
I like PR 1.1 with the Liquor to Grain Ratio. For us over the pond here in the USA, would you change the Liquor to Grain Ratio (US) display to quarts per pounds, qt/#

I think I speak for all us, thanks...
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 12 Jan 2013, 04:31, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #838 made 12 years ago
Hi All,

I am experimenting with making a very small batch stout, 4 litres scaled down from 23, to facilitate doing the mash in standard kitchen pans in a friends house. Was considering doing a 4 litre mash and 4 litre sparge, cos it seems somehow simple and logical to me, and easy to explain... but when I enter these figures into BIABacus it tells me to reduce Sparge volume. Could anyone offer me a pointer to understanding why this should be?

Thanks in advance,

Ed

Post #839 made 12 years ago
Thank you Mad Scientist for that suggestion. This is now done and we've also just added a few more things relating to quarts to the Unit Conversion Sheet.

Thanks also to those of you asking and answering questions here and giving your feedback. Your interest and enthusiasm makes more difference than you might think. A lot of the time during this project, those working on it wonder if they are making a difference as well. It is your participation that re-enthuses them.

It also triggers new ways of thinking and solving problems. PP mentioned a few posts above that I would write something on one of the hardest layout and design problems we've had. I was meant to write on why we weren't happy with some aspects of the Grain and Hop Bill layout. Yesterday, I was unable to write an answer. The process though of being forced to provide one has triggered a solution that solves this problem. Often, until you actually do find the solution, it is very hard to verbalise what you are trying to solve.

[center]What we think will be the final layout.[/center]
For those of you interested, I'm going to post a file here that shows what we think will be the final layout. It only has the first sheet of the BIABacus as it is only intended as a tool to help with this post. Please don't re-post it.
BIABacus PR1.1D - First Sheet Only.xls
There are also a few things that we are still not sure on which I will explain later.

[center]What this layout solves.[/center]
As far as possible, every part of the BIABacus must satisfy the goals of safety, education, user-friendliness, speed of use, power and flexibility. PR 1.0 didn't quite get there. We think these last changes to the layout solve the problems we were seeing.

Safety

One of the greatest features of the BIABacus is it is very safe. It is very difficult for a new user to make major errors. If they do, it is very easy for others to identify the error. This new layout maintains this safety.

Education

This is a subtle feature of the BIABAcus. It is impossible to explain the many considerations that have gone into this aspect. The goal though is that all users, experienced or inexperienced will be able to teach themselves a lot just by using the BIABacus. Change a number, for example, and you'll usually be able to visually see what that change affects.

PR 1.0 failed to do this. Critical input fields that only relate to the Hop Bill were too far away for the user to see the affects. In this new layout, these critical fields are part of the Hop Bill section. This will assist the user to see the effects of these fields. Further more, especially when we write the help, it will allow them to become educated in one of the most unsafe areas of recipe design and scaling.

User-Friendliness

This is another hard area to verbalise. A spreadsheet places some very limiting factors in this area but I think that those of you who have tried the BIABacus have found that it does quite well in this area. Lots of factors come into this so instead of explaining them, I'll attempt to explain one of the things we weren't liking in PR 1.0.

PR 1.0, to us, made the BIABacus look like just a scaler. The design abilities were a bit too hidden. We thought that in the Grain Bill and the Hop Bill, it looked too much like there was a 'left' and a 'right' hand side. In the new layout, we have replaced the two headings you see in PR 1.0 with a single heading. This and a few other subtle changes, we think, will lead the user seeing these sections in a different but very important way. Instead of seeing a left and right, hopefully they will now see a single line or to put it a different way, they will see each line of the grain bill as a single sentence instead of two phrases.

The above is a good example of how difficult it is to explain and define some problems. The above, of course, is not just a user-friendliness problem, it relates to all other aspects as well.

Speed of Use

Hopefully the new layout will be faster to use in the fact that some fields are now in a more logical place. Nothing major though has been gained in speed though with the new layout.

One interesting thing though that slightly relates to speed is that in this layout, we have now been able to put a letter beside every single section from A to Z. Now users can communicate much faster with each other. Instead of having to write, "Go to the 'Maxi-BIAB Adjustments' section which is over on the right," the author can say, "Go to Section W."

The above also solves a major logistical problem in the structuring of the help forum.

Power

A lot of the powerful features of the BIABacus are hidden and just occur automatically without the user having an awareness of them. This is the way it should be.

Down the track we'll probably write some posts on what we call, 'Recipe Investigation.' This new layout makes this easier.

Flexibility

The BIABacus covers full-volume brewers and maxi-BIAB variations. This is just one of many things that can't be found in other brewing software. The BIABacus can even be used for traditional brewing. This new layout doesn't really impact this flexibility so we haven't gained or lost anything here..

[center]What we still don't like or are unsure of.[/center]
Section C

- Not sure if allowing an OG over-ride on the first line is necessary. Certain logic advantage to it but it might cause more confusion than benefit.
- Top line currently adds to the old left versus right problem.
- Can't think of anything better that, "What you will use..." atm.
- Would like to see the left hand side of Section C have a light green heading*. We can possibly move what is there atm up to the right hand side of the top line. (See below though.)

Section D

- Can't think of anything better that, "What you will use..." atm.
- Probably should add some red warnings depending on what inputs are made.
- Would like to see the left hand side of Section D have a light green heading*. We can possibly move what is there atm to a third top line. Adding third line means adding three rows.

* If we do this, what should that heading say?

[center]Thank you for your interest.[/center]
A big consideration in the BIABacus design is that we are fully aware that the majority of users just want fast answers and there is nothing wrong with that. The BIABAcus gives fast answers that are also correct which is no easy feat.

For those of you who have read the above though, we hope you've enjoyed or at least found this glimpse of some of the behind the scenes work interesting. We certainly appreciate your interest. And, often it is people like yourselves who create or play an important role in finding the simple answers to these very complex problems.

All the best,
Pat
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Last edited by Pat on 12 Jan 2013, 08:59, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #840 made 12 years ago
Would you provide an example on the BIABacus how first wort hops (FW) are entered on the sheet? Entering the (FW) into either column doesn't seem to change the calculations. Is it for informational purposes only?
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Post #841 made 12 years ago
Hi Pat,

as a recent first time user of the BIABacus what I really liked about it was that by working my way through each section and playing with different figures I felt like I was learning more about the 'processes' at work. So because of that I'm a huge fan, thank you.

Lee

Post #842 made 12 years ago
Pat wrote: [center]What we still don't like or are unsure of.[/center]
Section C

- Not sure if allowing an OG over-ride on the first line is necessary. Certain logic advantage to it but it might cause more confusion than benefit.
- Top line currently adds to the old left versus right problem.
- Can't think of anything better that, "What you will use..." atm.
- Would like to see the left hand side of Section C have a light green heading*. We can possibly move what is there atm up to the right hand side of the top line. (See below though.)
I like the OG over-ride.

As for the heading, "What you will use...", my thought is "Your Grain Bill Is...", "Your Hop Bill Is...", using the word "Your", ties in with section K, L, M, P, etc.

EDIT: 01/12/2013 8:59 AM, My comments were based on the "BIABacus PR1.1D - First Sheet Only" as provided by Pat.
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 12 Jan 2013, 09:43, edited 10 times in total.
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Post #843 made 12 years ago
Brewbagman: Thanks for your feedback and comments in the last few posts. Good on you ;)

evilddietbird: Can't work out the answer off the top of my head but if you can post your file, we'll be able to track the problem down. Let us know if you have any trouble posting it.

Mad_Scientist: Thanks for all the posts above. Let us know if there are any other unit conversions missed. "Your," is a good idea. Might need something different than grain and hop bill as the names are on the left hand side :scratch:. Here's the FWH answer...

First Wort Hopping

There were two options here. One was to increase the IBU's when a hop is first wort and the other was to leave it the same. There's not a whole lot of raw data on this. What little there is says that perceived IBU's stay the same but the IBU's measured with the proper equipment actually increases. Seeing as we are home brewers and don't posses any scientific equipment, we thought working on perceived IBU's (no change) to be the best approach.

So the "FW" should be typed in that second plain white field just to show you that the hop is a first wort hop one.

Pretty good you were able to work out what to do there MS. We weren't too sure if anyone would be able to work that part out without help. Good on you :).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Jan 2013, 18:30, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #844 made 12 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:
Mad_Scientist: Thanks for all the posts above. Let us know if there are any other unit conversions missed. "Your," is a good idea. Might need something different than grain and hop bill as the names are on the left hand side :scratch:.
In regards to Section C and D;
Replacing the verbage, "What you will use..."
How about the verbage, "Your Actual Adjustments", using your verbage from sections L and W.
My comments are based on the "BIABacus PR1.1D - First Sheet Only" as provided by Pat.
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 12 Jan 2013, 23:51, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #845 made 12 years ago
MS, had a really good run at this problem today and everything has fallen into place really nicely :party:. (IMO. Fingers crossed!)

One big issue we haven't mentioned is always space. Trying to fit words and info into tiny areas without compromising the communication is a nightmare. But, after today's work, the 'What you will use...' bit actually looks okay and I can no longer see any ambiguity. Spent a lot of time though thinking on your and other's suggestions. These really force your brain to look at things from other angles and played no small part in things coming together today so well :salute:.

I can't post a sheet up for you now as some warnings and formulas have to be re-written and, to be honest, my brain is totally buggered. Not sure how we'll go tomorrow either as Aces High is arriving here at 10am (in about 9 hours) and he wants to drink beer for a few hours while Mrs Aces shops and then he wants us all to go to lunch.

Some people have no consideration :lol:*.

Thanks again to you MS and the others for your brain sparks,
PP

* (I should send Aces to BobBrews, Bob likes a beer for breakfast :P)
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Post #846 made 12 years ago
The BIABacus looks really nice and seems to be a great brewing tool. However, I've got some questions regarding how to do a Maxi-BIAB with BIABacus.

With the old Maxi-BIAB calculator, the spreadsheet would calculate the pre-boil, boil and fermenter additions based on kettle diameters (in my case, 34x27cm, 24.5 liter kettle). However, BIABacus doesn't seem to do this. Rather, there are entry fields for sparge water, lauter additions, boil additions and fermenter additions. Do I just guess the values, and tweak them if a red warning text appears?

So, my approach so far as to guessing the values: I usually dunk-sparge with two 4-liter sparges, so total 8 liters of sparge. I'm guessing that I enter this into the sparge water field.
Do I now tweak the lauter and boil additions so as to make up the sparge total of 8 liters?
Finally, I tweak the fermenter dilution so that the mash volume ends up at what I am comfortable with filling the kettle with. Is this the correct process?

Post #847 made 12 years ago
hi there huhih,

Great question - just hoping my explanation makes sense as there's a few things to explain. Also bear in mind that there are many different versions of stux' Maxi-BIAB Calulator files on the site in different places. I think the points below though are common to all versions from memory.

MBC below means stux' Maci-BIAB Calculator and many Calculator 2.0 files. (Relates slightly to CE Calculator as well).

MBC Assumption 1

MBC assumes that if you make any Maxi-BIAB adjustments (non full-volume adjustments), you will do them in a certain order - sparge (in some versions), pre-boil top-up, during boil top-up and fermentor top-up. There are countless practical variances actually depending on the user.

The first problem here is that this not always the case. Often it is better (more practical) to do a small fermentor top-up (needs no extra vessels) than a small sparge (needing two more vessels).

MBC Assumption 2

The second assumption is that the MBC assumes your fermentor size is unlimited. In other words, if you had a 40 litre pot and wanted to brew up 120 L of beer, the end result is that you will end up diluting your wort (if your fermentor was actually big enough) to a totally unacceptable level.

So, following the MBC's suggestions blindly can be unsafe or they simply might not suit your set-up.

BIABAcus

Maxi-BIAB adjustments need to be made consciously to be made safely and practically. This process cannot be automated* So, yes, the BIABacus will require you to play the 'game of twenty questions' in this area however...

1. Red warnings will pop up to keep you safe.

2. When making adjustments, on most computer screens, you will be able to view the effects, including changes to EIK which is not available in most MBC's.

3. Once you've played the 'game' once, you can just keep using these settings. (If your normal brews are of average OG's and you went to brew a big OG beer, warnings will pop up if this pushes your boundaries too much.)

* Why Can't You Automate It?

Automating Maxi-BIAB would involve a ridiculous amount of information to be inputted by the user including having to answer very subjective questions such as, "Is your time more important than money to you?" Other questions would include, "What other vessels do you have besides your main kettle?" "What are their dimensions" "Do you have a heat source for one or more of these vessels?" "In the second vessel that has a heat source, if it's full, can you bring it to boiling?" If not, how much can you boil" etc etc etc.

Get the idea? :lol:

Even if you could collect the right information to suit the countless different scenarios that exist in reality, the calculations would require macros which will not work cross-platform.

I haven't answered the second half of your question yet. It sill be better in a separate post. I have to do something else now but will be back in an hour or so.

Back soon :peace:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Jan 2013, 19:35, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #848 made 12 years ago
Back again. Let's take a look at the other part of your question...

Sparging - Should you be dong it?

There's a lot of misinformation on BIAB sparging out there. Many brewers are doing it unnecessarily. This is due to a number of reasons, some psychological, some through a misunderstanding of measurement and some from mathematical models rather than real life.

For example, whilst the final numbers of the CE Calc work out really well, stux was never sure on the sparging estimates which mainly come from a mathematical model. That model predicts a large increase in efficiency from sparging but these numbers and based on a small range of low liquor to grain mashing ratios as well as a small number of tests from traditional brews. At high liquor to grain ratios this does not hold true.

Whilst we always need more experimetns, in the side by side ones we've done that pit sparging against full-volume, the sparging has only increased efficiency by about 1% which is nothing.

So, the current advice here is, "If you can full-volume mash, then do it."

(The above might seem illogical. If you search for my posts that contain the words "psychology," "psychological," and/or "washing machine" as they might help you to see the logic a little better. Seeing this whole area differently can be very hard if your brain is already wired up to see sparging a certain way.)

Sparging or just top-up?

The above section tells us that what's important in Efficiency into Kettle (EIK) is how much water 'touches' the grain rather than when it actually touches the grain.

If you mash with as much water as you can fit comfortably in your kettle, the most amount of water you will be able to use in a sparge is the weight of your grain in kgs x 0.6 L. So, if your grain bill is 5 kgs, the most water you will be able to use in a sparge is 3 L.

The BIABacus can help you make a decision as to whether a small sparge (you shouldn't be doing a big one) is worth the extra time, effort and equipment. The two things to look at in the BIABacus are the weights on the right hand side of the grain bill and/or your estimated EIK. What you should find is that not doing a small sparge will cost you a lot less than you may think in extra grain.

I will be sparging. Should I do one or two?

As mentioned above, there is a lot of misinformation on this whole sparging area. On the surface, a lot of that info seems logical. If the above is not seeming logical, now's the time to read a "washing machine" post I mentioned above.

It's very important to see the real logic otherwise, you might well continue making a brew day laborious for no reason.

Two sparges are best for traditional batch sparging (mainly because the first one is used to raise to mash-out temps) but will give no benefit if you have mashed with as much water as you can. The two scenarios are very different.

So, do one sparge.

Where do I put my sparge numbers?

Hopefully, from the above, if you are sparging, you are doing it for good reason and will only be doing one sparge but...

The BIABacus can actually be used for traditional batch-sparging where two sparges are involved. It won't separate and give you the correct sparge volumes. (If a traditional brewer is reading this, I can give you a thread to read on this calculation.)

On a typical traditional batch sparge, the first sparge might require 7 L (this brings the wort to mash-out temps) whilst the second might be 15 L. In the BIABacus, you would type 22 L into the, "Water Used in a Sparge" field. No sparge water should be put in any other field.

What's the 'Water Added after Final Lauter' field for?

(Side Note: Lauter means rinse. In full-volume BIAB, the lauter occurs at the bag-pull and the grain is being effectively 'rinsed' by the entire volume of water. If you sparge, the lauter finishes after your final bag-pull and the grain is rinsed by a very small volume of water assuming you have followed the steps above. Basically, the lauter is the last instance in which the water 'touches' the grain.)

If you were sparging, this field would always stay blank as you should be mashing and sparging with as much water as is possible to get your kettle comfortably full at the start of the boil.

If you are not doing a sparge, the sooner you can add water to the wort, the better. So, the general rule is, if you have to dilute, add as much water as you can, as early as you can.

...

So there you go huhih :P. There's a lot to take in, in the above two posts. Many aspects will be psychologically challenging, even unbelievable at first so don't worry if you find that and, if you have any questions, throw them in.

As I said at the start of the first post, it's a great question.

:thumbs:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Jan 2013, 21:26, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #849 made 12 years ago
Wow. Thanks for the comprehensive and detailed answers!
Will have to re-read it a couple of times and do some background reading to fully comprehend it all. A quick summary as far as how I currently understand it:

If full-volume biab, then mash with full volume and no sparge.
If maxi-biab, mash with as much as the kettle will hold. Yet as the aim is to have as much of the total water amount to be in contact with the grain, it is beneficial to rinse with as much of the held back water that didn't fit in the initial mash for so to top-up during the boil. However, I understand this as being sparging. Think I have to dig up those previous posts you referred to and do some reading.
Last edited by huhih on 13 Jan 2013, 22:44, edited 2 times in total.

Post #850 made 12 years ago
PP - You may want to employ Huhih to type your messages in future. Very succinct :lol:
G B
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I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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