I am forever looking for time efficiencies, in a busy life, but at the same time wanting great beer. Also I like to experiment.
I have a beer that I really like that is FWH hopped only (at the rate of 8oz per batch) and it is a single malt with Marris Otter only.
I have read the threads on here about overnight mashing and I found great information on the pros and cons of that. My query is mostly about adding hops to the mash for an overnight stew prior to boiling.
I am wondering if I can start doing an overnight mash and throw the hops into the mash. I was thinking maybe I would let the mash work for 30 minutes before adding the hops to the bag. I think that would make the hopping results somewhere between a first wort hop and a mash hop. I am hoping however that the result might be similar to my FWH only beer. I have never done mash hopping and I don't know how that compares to FWH.
If I do this, the hops are also not going to go through a boil as they will be pulled with the grains in the morning.
I might give this a try, but I wonder if anyone has comments or recommendations please, so that I will be less likely to waste time with trial and error.
Post #2 made 11 years ago
GuingesRock,
The aroma oils extracted in overnight mashing "Probably" would get attached to the grains that would be thrown out? The grains and hops mixture would be unusable for making dog bisque's as they may kill the dog. Sounds like a bad idea to me? FWH'ing, Late hoping and Dry hoping are simple enough for dummies like me. I do like to experiment and that goes hand in hand with BIAB and N/C but "I" would pass on this idea?
The aroma oils extracted in overnight mashing "Probably" would get attached to the grains that would be thrown out? The grains and hops mixture would be unusable for making dog bisque's as they may kill the dog. Sounds like a bad idea to me? FWH'ing, Late hoping and Dry hoping are simple enough for dummies like me. I do like to experiment and that goes hand in hand with BIAB and N/C but "I" would pass on this idea?
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
Good points Bob, Thanks. I guess I would end up doing more of a mash hop, which is maybe not what I want. Do you know much about mash hopping? Have you ever tried mash hopping?
Do the aroma oils have a high affinity for grains as you say? Do you think that not enough would stay in the wort?
Thanks
ps. Just found something interesting:
Do the aroma oils have a high affinity for grains as you say? Do you think that not enough would stay in the wort?
Thanks
ps. Just found something interesting:
"Observations on Mash Hopping by Marc Sedam
Every brewer knows when to add hops in the wort. You need some for the long boil to bitter the beer, some between 10-20 minutes from the end of the boil for flavor, and a handful at the end of the boil to get the intoxicating aroma into the beer. The hopheads among us even dry hop beer for that extra something in many pale ales. Oh, and of course you can add hops to the mash.
The mash?
Hops in the mash have a history in brewing. I first came upon this concept while trying to make the ultimate Berliner Weiss. Eric Schneider's article on Berliner Weiss in Brewing Techniques a few years back mentioned that aged leaf hops were often placed in the mash to aid in filtration. My attempt at the recipe came out well, but the concept of adding some hops to the mash was intriguing. What would hops do in the mash? Could you use pellets?
My first mash-hopped brew was a simple lager made using 10 pounds of pilsner malt, two ounces of Hallertauer Hersbrucker in the mash, and an ounce of Bullion in the boil for bittering. The resulting beer was shocking. It had hop aroma and flavor that I'd never been able to get in a beer before. When the beer was warmed up a bit, one whiff put me closer to a hop field than any glass ever before.
I continued to experiment with the amounts of hops to use in the mash, trying to make recipes I knew so I could subjectively predict the bitterness contributed. Pilsners, brown ales, barleywines, and pale ales - all of these styles seemed to benefit from mash hopping. A few postings to the Homebrew Digest (http://www.hbd.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) led me to Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, a homebrew shop in Canada run by Stephen Cavan. Little did I know that Stephen had been dabbling in mash hopping as well and had some information up on his website. I began to share what I was doing with other homebrewing web groups and convinced a few people to give it a shot. Many were impressed with the result. Some were not. I encouraged people to write me with their experiences and asked for as much detail on the brewing process as they could remember. Several e-mails were swapped over the next few months and some "best methods" began to emerge.
How do you mash hop?
Not all beers are worth mash hopping. But those beers that are characterized by hop flavor or aroma certainly seem to benefit. My Classic American Pilsner really shines when mash hopped. Others have tried it in a decoction and, other than a slightly increased bittering contribution of the mash hops, enjoyed the results. I have a few simple rules for converting a normally hopped beer to a mash hopped brew:
1.Replace the amount of late addition flavor and aroma hops with 1.5x the amount of mash hops. For example, if your recipe calls for an ounce of Saaz as a flavor addition and another ounce for the aroma addition, you would add three ounces of Saaz to the mash. Hops are added directly to the mash at dough-in.
2.Use pellets. I have mash hopped with leaf and with pellets and the pellets give much better results. This could be because the hop oils are more exposed in the pellets through processing.
3.Add slightly more bittering hops. Current observations indicate that mash hopping provides almost no bitterness to the finished beer. Thus when you move hops from the boil to the mash, you must compensate for the bitterness that is lost. I do this by calculating the IBUs that would have been contributed to the original recipe by the flavor and aroma hops and then increasing the bittering hop addition accordingly.
4.Sparge, boil, chill, ferment, enjoy! That's it. After adding hops to the mash, the rest of the brewing cycle proceeds as normal. Surprisingly, the hops do not get in the way of lautering. I always start the lauter slowly, but have never had a stuck mash since starting mash hopping.
Why does it work?
The short answer is that I don't know. Traditional beers generate hop flavor and aroma through late hop additions because the volatile oils that provide these properties are driven off in the boil. Mash hopping is targeting the aromatic oils and not the bittering oils. Mash hopped beers have plenty of hop flavor and aroma, yet the wort is boiled for over an hour. My main theory is that the otherwise volatile hop oils are stabilized during extended periods at mashing pH (5.2-5.5). A reason to believe this theory is found in Jean DeClerck's classic Textbook of Brewing (1957). DeClerck states that hop aromatic oils form chemical bonds at higher pH values and lower temps than found in boiling wort. The bonds which are formed are not broken during the boil; hence the permanent aromatic profile. DeClerck even suggested steeping hops in warm water. So the mash provides an attractive temperature and pH profile to allow the hop aromatic oils to form permanent bonds and making them less volatile. Even the eventual boil of the wort isn't enough to drive off the aromas. Again, this is my theory that seems to have a toehold in previous scientific observation. But this is far from the definitive answer.
I have done ten mash-hopped beers and the other feedback I've received gives a sample size of over 50 batches. Most folks report achieving a smoother hop flavor and aroma. In addition, of course, everyone gets less debris in the kettle since the hops are added to the mash and not the boil. This helps to increase wort yield and I've eked out an extra quart of wort on each batch due solely to this effect.
I have received other feedback on mash hopping from personal e-mails and public postings on the HBD. Some people have not seen a great effect from trying the process. Most of these were attributed to using too few hops in the mash. But there are still others who don't have an explanation. Other factors such as water chemistry and mash pH may play a role, but these would require further exploration.
Summary
Mash hopping isn't for every beer and it may not be financially sound for commercial breweries. But home brewers should certainly try the process once to test it out for themselves. As most of what is presented here has come from experimentation by myself and others, I'd be happy to hear about your experiences. I always appreciate feedback from those who have tried it and someday hope to have a mash-hopped beer analyzed for content to empirically determine what's happening.
This article was published on Thursday 12 February, 2004."
Last edited by GuingesRock on 24 Apr 2013, 21:58, edited 3 times in total.
Guinges
Post #4 made 11 years ago
GuingesRock,
During "My very first BIAB" in 2006 I was following the instructions and feeling quite confident as to what I was doing. I was about to pull the mash when my wife came up to me (with a chainsaw??
) and said "How do I work this thing?" I panicked and dumped the hops I was holding into the mash?? I took the chainsaw away from the crazy wife and proceeded to cut some lumber for a (Horseshoe pit). When I got back to my brewing and realized what I did I just pulled the (now 90 minute mash). I did have extra hops so I just followed my normal routine.
The first BIAB was just as good as my 3 vessel beers so I gave up 3V in 2006 and have been here ever since. So you see my first BIAB was a hopped mash beer by accident.
During "My very first BIAB" in 2006 I was following the instructions and feeling quite confident as to what I was doing. I was about to pull the mash when my wife came up to me (with a chainsaw??
) and said "How do I work this thing?" I panicked and dumped the hops I was holding into the mash?? I took the chainsaw away from the crazy wife and proceeded to cut some lumber for a (Horseshoe pit). When I got back to my brewing and realized what I did I just pulled the (now 90 minute mash). I did have extra hops so I just followed my normal routine.The first BIAB was just as good as my 3 vessel beers so I gave up 3V in 2006 and have been here ever since. So you see my first BIAB was a hopped mash beer by accident.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
GR, Mash hopping has been "diss'ed" becuase, most ALL hop oils, DO attach to the grains, and leave with the grains.
A total waste of Hops!!!!
A total waste of Hops!!!!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
Thanks guys.
Maybe the mash hop is what got you hooked on BIAB beer Bob.
So far it's a no then.
I suppose I could pull the grains after a 90 minute mash, then throw in the hops for an overnight fwh hop, and carry on with the boil in the morning? Maybe not much advantage, or time saving. Thanks for the input.
Does anyone here mash hop? Some practical experience input would really help. I'm still niggling a bit to try it.
Maybe the mash hop is what got you hooked on BIAB beer Bob.
So far it's a no then.
I suppose I could pull the grains after a 90 minute mash, then throw in the hops for an overnight fwh hop, and carry on with the boil in the morning? Maybe not much advantage, or time saving. Thanks for the input.
Does anyone here mash hop? Some practical experience input would really help. I'm still niggling a bit to try it.
Guinges
Post #7 made 11 years ago
GR, remember the Flavor hop oils, and Aroma hop oils, Do boil-off pretty quickly.
So, late additions or Late Hopping will give you what you need!
So, late additions or Late Hopping will give you what you need!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #8 made 11 years ago
Thanks for your discussion Joshua. I remember reading similar arguments about FWH, but I decided to try it nevertheless. I used to put all my hops with large additions into late hopping (hop bursting) and I loved the result, so I know what you are talking about. When I tried FWH, I thought the only way to truly evaluate FWH would be to put all the hops into the FWH. When I did that I got amazing flavours with a smooth bitterness, and FWH only is now my method of choice as I prefer the results to hop bursting. Because of my experience with FWH I am inclined to believe that the theory below is correct.
I think the same things might happen with mash hopping. I'm not too worried about having to use extra hops, If the taste is great and I get good results, I'll pay the money. I won't be too impressed though if I discover that what you and Bob say is true and the grains steal my hop flavours from me...I won't put up with that for more than a few seconds!
I think the same things might happen with mash hopping. I'm not too worried about having to use extra hops, If the taste is great and I get good results, I'll pay the money. I won't be too impressed though if I discover that what you and Bob say is true and the grains steal my hop flavours from me...I won't put up with that for more than a few seconds!
the volatile hop constituents undergo very complicated reactions, producing a complexity of hop bitterness and aroma that is obtainable no other way. http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html
As the boil kettle fills with wort, the hops steep in the hot wort releasing their volatile oils and resins. The aromatic oils are normally insoluble and tend to volatlize during the boil. By letting the hops steep in the wort prior to boiling, the oils have more time to oxidize to more soluble compounds and a greater percentage is retained during the boil. http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catal ... cles_id=22
Another link: http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html
Last edited by GuingesRock on 25 Apr 2013, 02:04, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
Post #9 made 11 years ago
GuingesRock,
Here is something that I learned from the "Experts?". Everything, and I mean everything, has been tried already. We tend to feel that we are on the cutting edge (because we are BIAB and we "ARE" on the pinnacle of brewing") But I have found out the techniques we are trying now have been done in the year 1632 or something like that! We must pursue every idea that we can but in reality they have been tried already! The difference is that now we know how to test, record and verify every idea and technique. Sometimes we fail and sometimes we triumph.
I tend to want to challenge every accepted practice in brewing because we (as a whole) have proven a lot of rock solid standards a bunch of crap! I want to overturn most of the accepted practices because they are not tested just accepted, because it "seems right". Please continue to challenge the norm. I applaud you!
Here is something that I learned from the "Experts?". Everything, and I mean everything, has been tried already. We tend to feel that we are on the cutting edge (because we are BIAB and we "ARE" on the pinnacle of brewing") But I have found out the techniques we are trying now have been done in the year 1632 or something like that! We must pursue every idea that we can but in reality they have been tried already! The difference is that now we know how to test, record and verify every idea and technique. Sometimes we fail and sometimes we triumph.
I tend to want to challenge every accepted practice in brewing because we (as a whole) have proven a lot of rock solid standards a bunch of crap! I want to overturn most of the accepted practices because they are not tested just accepted, because it "seems right". Please continue to challenge the norm. I applaud you!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #11 made 11 years ago
From #3 “Traditional beers generate hop flavor and aroma through late hop additions because the volatile oils that provide these properties are driven off in the boil. Mash hopping is targeting the aromatic oils and not the bittering oils. Mash hopped beers have plenty of hop flavor and aroma, yet the wort is boiled for over an hour.”
From #3 "the volatile hop constituents undergo very complicated reactions, producing a complexity of hop bitterness and aroma that is obtainable no other way."
From #8 "The aromatic oils are normally insoluble and tend to volatlize during the boil. By letting the hops steep in the wort prior to boiling, the oils have more time to oxidize to more soluble compounds and a greater percentage is retained during the boil."
For the sake of discussion that possibly might lead to experimentation:
If it is true that FWH and mash hopping cause hop oils to oxidize and become soluble compounds, and I believe from my FWH experience that may be true, then those soluble, no longer volatile compounds, should be less likely to be lost during fermentation also. Since these compounds are now soluble and in solution, they should be no more likely to be retained by the grains than the brewing sugars which are also in solution.
Furthermore, a prolonged overnight hop (either mash hop or FWH) might enable more of this oxidation to oxidised and soluble compounds to occur, with a potential to actually increase the efficiency of hop usage. My main interest in this, however, isn't efficiency of hop usage, but rather it is the potential for brewing simplicity together with enhanced flavour, aroma and smooth bittering.
This might not work, but it could be worth a shot.
From #3 "the volatile hop constituents undergo very complicated reactions, producing a complexity of hop bitterness and aroma that is obtainable no other way."
From #8 "The aromatic oils are normally insoluble and tend to volatlize during the boil. By letting the hops steep in the wort prior to boiling, the oils have more time to oxidize to more soluble compounds and a greater percentage is retained during the boil."
For the sake of discussion that possibly might lead to experimentation:If it is true that FWH and mash hopping cause hop oils to oxidize and become soluble compounds, and I believe from my FWH experience that may be true, then those soluble, no longer volatile compounds, should be less likely to be lost during fermentation also. Since these compounds are now soluble and in solution, they should be no more likely to be retained by the grains than the brewing sugars which are also in solution.
Furthermore, a prolonged overnight hop (either mash hop or FWH) might enable more of this oxidation to oxidised and soluble compounds to occur, with a potential to actually increase the efficiency of hop usage. My main interest in this, however, isn't efficiency of hop usage, but rather it is the potential for brewing simplicity together with enhanced flavour, aroma and smooth bittering.
This might not work, but it could be worth a shot.
Guinges
Post #12 made 11 years ago
GuingesRock,
The problem with doing experiments to prove a theory is that we tend to get the results we want. In other words we fool ourselves because we want to verify or prove right our own theory. So I would not go crazy in believing "Mash Hopping by Marc Sedam". I have been guilty of it and have come back to the basic premiss that simpler is better. FWH'ing and late additions with a dash of dry hoping works perfectly.
When your splitting hairs the results are not easy to test for and that's what we are doing here. The testing would be subjective at best and is it worth brewing the same exact beer a number of times looking for a indistinguishable difference? I like to try new things and test theories but the results must be worth the work and make a change in my brewing practices.
If you try this method and am sure you will say it "seemed" to work. But trying it a number of times both ways it will have no real difference. Less reading and more brewing has help me improve my beer. It seems the more I read the less I know?
The problem with doing experiments to prove a theory is that we tend to get the results we want. In other words we fool ourselves because we want to verify or prove right our own theory. So I would not go crazy in believing "Mash Hopping by Marc Sedam". I have been guilty of it and have come back to the basic premiss that simpler is better. FWH'ing and late additions with a dash of dry hoping works perfectly.
When your splitting hairs the results are not easy to test for and that's what we are doing here. The testing would be subjective at best and is it worth brewing the same exact beer a number of times looking for a indistinguishable difference? I like to try new things and test theories but the results must be worth the work and make a change in my brewing practices.
If you try this method and am sure you will say it "seemed" to work. But trying it a number of times both ways it will have no real difference. Less reading and more brewing has help me improve my beer. It seems the more I read the less I know?
Last edited by BobBrews on 25 Apr 2013, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #13 made 11 years ago
Yes you are right Bob. That was all very well put. I know I am just doing educated mucking around, but it's fun, and you stumble across things, maybe a simpler way of doing things, or a beer that you really like.
Guinges
