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Post #27 made 11 years ago
by Squared
As the cold canadian winter approaches, I'll have to pick my brew days wisely, but I would try giving this a go as well in the test department. I have a friend who would do his bactch at the same time, same place, same method.

I did try a FWH beer a month or so ago and while I agreed that it was flavorful, I wondered if there would have been a percieved difference going on a "standard" schedule.

Post #28 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, I have mashed a double batch (big Container), to mash out. Then, transfered the wort to two smaller kettles, did different things to one, and did standard brewing on the other.

This way I found if the changes did anything to the beer. (Usally a lot).

Just me $0.02us
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Post #29 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
Squared,

I think this is why we must do this as a side by side. As you said "perceived difference" Each time I try something new I look for a difference but I fear I am looking for something better and I cloud my own judgment.
We see what we want to see. We hear what we want to hear. We taste what we want too taste!
If you are trying to prove a point about something and you are passionate about it. It is very hard to be non-committal and unbiased. I have been as guilty as anyone so I am changing my methods. Last week was the second time I had my brew club do a blind taste test. The results made me feel better because I was not testing just pouring and marking cups.

I love brewing and consuming beer but lately I have having more fun experimenting with beer and debunking brewing myths and hearsay evidence. I hope I can do it with a "Open eye and a closed mouth"? :roll:
Last edited by BobBrews on 05 Nov 2012, 20:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #30 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
That's a nice way josh ;).

Like Bob and joshua, I also enjoy the experiment side. The hard thing is that even with just a few experiments, you end up with a heap of similiar beer. I never thought I'd say this but drinking the beer fast enough so you can experiment often can become hard even if on Bob's infamous Beer Diet :dunno:.

We probably could do with a thread on "Small Scale Side by Side Experiment Design." Might start one now and link when done.

EDIT: Done - here's the thread
Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Nov 2012, 18:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #31 made 11 years ago
by thughes
I have been brewing a lot of 1.5 gallon batches lately so I suppose I could do side-by-side experiments with them. The ugly corrollary to having "too much of the same beer to drink" is: "only having a 6 pack of some very tastey beer to drink". :interesting:

---Todd
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Post #32 made 11 years ago
by Lars
PistolPatch wrote:Lol Lars :lol:,

On the IBU bit, here is some more confusion for you... When the IBU's of a FWH'ed beer are measured scientifically,with instruments, the FWH will come out slightly higher than the 'normal' beer. However, tasting panels do not perceive a higher bitterness.

Some programs choose to give the scientific results, others choose to work on the palate. Some give the option to adjust. I've gone for option 2 which is perceived bitterness. In other words, you don't adjust or play with anything - we assume that the FWH is going to taste as bitter as the boiled hop

Doing it this way also matches the philosophy of not altering the overall weight of the hop bill when FWH'ing.

Your Hop Bill Converted

I haven't allowed any of your dry hops to be 'stolen' from Lars. Whether this is right or wrong, I don't know. If it is right, then your hop bill, assuming you want to move 40% of your hops, to FWH will be...

46.2 g Cascade (6.8%) @ FWH
16.0 g Amarillo (9.3%) @ 60 mins
10.0 g Cascade (6.8%) @ 60 mins
3.8 g Cascade (6.8%) @ 20 mins
20.0 g Cascade (6.8%) @ DH
10.0 g Amarillo (9.3%) @ DH

The overall perceived IBU's will theoretically be the same as the original recipe.

Let me know if you want me to decrease or increase the 40%.

:peace:
PP
Thanks again PP, Ill be trying this recipe some time in the next few weeks. As a matter of interest I set up this recipe using FWH in Beersmith exactly as you have given it to me. Beersmith gives it 69 IBUs, must be using some other method to calculate bitterness? Any reason why that would be?
Anyway, I'll be brewing it as is! Will let you know how it turns out

Thanks

L
Last edited by Lars on 08 Nov 2012, 12:51, edited 2 times in total.

Hop IBU Estimate Formula Problems

Post #33 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
[Please also see Chilling Myths - Asking the Right Questions.]

Good on You Lars :peace:,

Sounds like you are ready for some more confusion as well - IBU estimate formulas :lol:. I'll focus on Beersmith below but what you have found is a common problem. IBU estimates of an identical recipe from one program or book often don't match that of another.

Problem 1 - Three Different Formulas

The first problem is that there are three main IBU estimate formulas in use. They are known as Garetz, Tinseth and Rager and all will give you a different answer on the same recipe. For example, open up BeerSmith and find where you can change your bitterness options. It will give you one of the three options - Gartez, Rager or Tinseth. Change it from whatever it was on and look at the IBU estimate in your recipe now. It won't be 69 anymore. Sometimes the discrepancy is massive between the formulas as you can see the following pic which shows the different IBU's predicted on the same recipes using three different formulas.
BS2 IBU Discrepancies.jpg
[Above pic added on 6th February 2016.] Once you have done that, make sure you set your option to Tinseth as that is regarded as being the best formula for all-grain beers.

And now it gets worse :P...

Problem 2 - Different Interpretations of those Formula

An IBU estimate formula basically looks at two numbers. One is a volume figure and the other is a gravity figure. The problem is that some programs use different input volume and gravity figures. The two common volume and gravity inputs are...

a) End of Boil Volume (at ambient temp) - Used by Beersmith2 and the BIABacus
b) Volume into Fermentor - Used by Beersmith1
c) Start of Boil Gravity - Used by BeerSmith2 and Beersmith 1
d) End of Boil Gravity - Used by the BIABacus and the original version of The Calculator. (The current version allows for an average gravity but this is wrong. To get the right answer, on the Hop Bill sheet, over-write the Pre-Boil Gravity so it reads the same as the Original Gravity).

So, who is right?

This is an area that some of the guys here spent months scratching their head over and even ended up writing to Glen Tinseth. A and D above are the correct answers.

D is actually confirmed in the utilisaton tables on Glen Tinseth's hop page. A is also the logical number to use. For example, if you and a mate brew the same recipe, but he is bad at managing his trub and leaves 5 litres behind in the kettle to your 2 litres, will the beers be any less different in bitterness?

Other Hop Estimate Problems unrelated to Software

Hop estimate formulas are very primitive but they are the only tools we currently have. They are primitive because there are many aspects of hop characteristics that no one has been able to formulate yet. For example, any commercial brewer knows that hops added at flame-out will add bitterness to the beer however all three formulas say it doesn't. Another example is that you and I might both use an immersion chiller. You might turn yours on at flame-out whereas I might whirlppol, settle and not start my chilling until 30-40 minutes after the boil. You and I will end up with different beers. If you want to copy my recipe, then you will need to wait 30-40 minutes before chilling.

What Recipe Reports Need to Include

One of the things that was noticed when the BIABacus was being designed was how many recipe reports in existing programs simply did not have enough information for them to be interpreted or copied accurately. For example, most recipe reports do not indicate what hop formula was used let alone do they give enough information to determine the end of boil volume of the recipe. Many recipe reports leave you having to make wild guesses.

One thing I haven't seen anywhere before that has been included in the BIABcus is what chilling method was used and when it was employed. This way, you can look at my recipe and note if my chilling management method is different from yours. This gives you the ability to far better duplicate the hop profile of a recipe you are given.

So, there you go Lars. Crazy stuff eh? Go and have a beer :lol:
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Nov 2012, 17:39, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #35 made 11 years ago
by aydanrogers
Im going to give this a go tomorrow. This is the original recipe;

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 27.15 l
Post Boil Volume: 25.15 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
Bottling Volume: 19.60 l
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 14.7 EBC
Estimated IBU: 29.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 1 90.9 %
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L Medium (118.2 Grain 2 4.5 %
0.25 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 3 4.5 %
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 17.7 IBUs
17.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 12.2 IBUs
19.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Aroma Steep 0. Hop 6 0.0 IBUs


Im going to try this out, what do you think PP;

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 27.15 l
Post Boil Volume: 25.15 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
Bottling Volume: 19.60 l
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 14.7 EBC
Estimated IBU: 45.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 1 90.9 %
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L Medium (118.2 Grain 2 4.5 %
0.25 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 3 4.5 %
21.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - First Wort 60. Hop 4 27.3 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 17.7 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Aroma Steep 0. Hop 6 0.0 IBUs

I have moved 40% to FWH, I used all of the flavour addition and 5g from the aroma addition. Have I done this right?

Post #36 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Looks perfect Aydan :salute:,

Just shove the hops 'under' your bag at the end of the 60 or 90 min mash. The earlier you get them in the better as FWH is modelled on commercial brewerries where the lautering process takes quite some time. Hold on...

A new idea!

One thing we haven't thought of with BIAB, is that you could actually FWH from the start of the mash!!! This could turn out to be a very valid hopping method...

In traditional brewing, this is known as 'mash' hopping and is pretty useless as you have to use such a large amount of hops as they get lost in the actual mash. In BIAB though, we could actually add the hops to the liquor before we put the bag and the grain in and we wouldn't end up getting the hops taken away with the grist.

More experiments :roll:,
PP

P.S. Please let us know how this ends up tasting Aydan.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Nov 2012, 19:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #37 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Good Day PP, F.Mash.H. has that problem...If you add hops to the Bag, their gone at Mashout. If their outside the bag, there is very little space to mix with the Wort.

You are correct about all the above.

Search for MASH HOPPING, many have tryed it with little luck.
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Post #38 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
What I'm thinking here josh is that hopping under the bag early on could only improve the results of FWH'ing. Despite the limited space, there would be little penalty I can see except...

One thing we haven't talked enough about is hop oils.

One school of thought says that as soon as you add hops, the oils are released. So, for example, pulling a hop sock five minutes after flame-out makes no difference form pulling it at 20 minutes - the oils have been released. There's bound to be a lot of truth in this but who knows how much?

Anyway, I thought I had a great idea but now I am not so sure :P. What is concerning me is that if we did add the hops under the bag for the entire duration of the mash, the oils released would actually attach themselves to the grist and so we could well end up with the same problem with mash hopping that traditional brewers have - low utilisation. The hop oils will be dragged away and not get isomerized.

:angry:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Nov 2012, 20:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #39 made 11 years ago
by joshua
PP, I am working on data for the temperature that Hop oils "Melt" and mix with the wort, and "Flash" and Boil-out.

I have read the hop oils RFEALLY LIKE the grist, and most of the oils leave with the grist.

I have read most Flavor oils, and Aroma oils are available around 155F/67C.

SO, While Mashout is important for Specific Gravity, pulling the bag at the end of mash, and adding hops may be better????

Just another $0.02us
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Post #40 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
Joshua,

The last few boils I have been doing just that! As I hoist the bag out on a pulley (letting it drip back in) I add the hops while the temperature rises. With mashout temps at 170F I am not sure if any aroma lingers? Or should mashout be dropped? I have some great beers but (again) lots of research must be done!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
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Post #41 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, I found a WIKI article, and cut/pasted, and added Chemisty Data with brief desciption of Hop oils.......

[EDIT]:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... _chemistry
Added "world" Temperatures

Essential oils

Alpha acids

The alpha acids are the hop components most familiar to home brewers. Every package of hops sold to homebrewers indicates the alpha acid percentage to allow the brewer to calculate the bitterness he or she wants in the finished beer. The alpha acid percentage represents the amount of the hop, by weight, that is composed of alpha acids.

Humulone
Humulone (R=isovaleryl) is the primary alpha acid occurring in most hops. It is thought to give a desirable "soft" bittering to the finished beer.
Melts above 153F/67C, Never boils off

Cohumulone
Cohumulone (R=isobutyryl) has been considered to add a harsh, unpleasant bitterness to beer, and so low-cohumulone varieties were considered more desirable for brewing purposes; most noble hops have relatively low cohumulone. For this reason, cohumulone is often the only alpha acid identified specifically by hop producers. Cohumulone is indicated as a percentage (by weight) of the total alpha acid content of a hop.
Melts above 158F/70C, Never boils off


Adhumulone
Adhumulone (R=2-methylbutyryl), which usually occurs in relatively small amounts. Its effect on bitterness and flavor is not well understood.
Melts above 208F/96C, Never boils off

Each alpha acid has a corresponding iso-alpha acid. The iso-alpha acid isohumulone, the isomerized form of humulone, is important to brewers because it reacts with riboflavin in the presence of light to form MBT to form a skunk-like flavor and odor.

While alpha acids contribute most of the bitterness to beer, most of the hop flavor and aroma is contributed by volatile essential oils. Hop producers generally indicate the total percentage of essential oils by weight in a given hop, and sometimes identify specific oils by percentage of total oil.

Because hop oils are highly volatile, traditionally the aroma and flavor characteristics of hops were obtained by late hop additions or dry hopping, allowing the oils to be absorbed into the wort but not leaving them in the boil long enough to boil off. Traditionally flavor additions were made in the last fifteen minutes or less of the boil, while aroma additions were made with five minutes or less of boil remaining. However, recently home and craft brewers have been experimenting with the recently rediscovered technique of first wort hopping, which allows hops added early in the brewing process to survive the boil and lend flavor and aroma to the finished beer.

Beta acids
The principal hop essential oils are:

Humulene
Humulene is thought to lend the distinctive "noble" character to noble hops; most varieties traditionally considered noble are high in humulene, while many bittering hop varieties have very low levels. The noble character is strongest when the hops are used in dry hopping or late hop additions; if boiled for longer periods, humulene lends the finished beer an herbal or spicy character.
Melts above 168F/75C, Boils off at 194F/90C
http://beerlegends.com/humulene-oil


Myrcene
Myrcene yields flavors that were not traditionally considered desirable by European brewers, and noble hops are very low in myrcene. However, many American hop varieties are very high in myrcene; it makes up up to 60% of total oil in Cascade and up to 70% in Amarillo. Also found in some citrus fruits, myrcene lends American hops many of their distinctive flavors.
Melts above 80F/26C, Boils off at 120F/50C
http://beerlegends.com/myrcene-oil

When added late in, or after, the boil, myrcene adds the intense, pungent aroma associated with American dry-hopped beers. When boiled for longer periods, it yields the characteristic citrus and pine aromas of American craft beer.

Caryophyllene
Caryophyllene adds a spicy, herbal character similar to humulene when boiled. Its effect on flavor when fresh is not well understood.
Melts above 130F/52C, Boils off at 205F/96C
http://beerlegends.com/caryophyllene-oil

Farnesene
Farnesene makes up a very low percentage of total oil in most hop varieties. However, it is considered significant because it makes up a substantial proportion of some noble hops. Its effect on flavor and aroma is unknown.
Melts above 190F/85C, Never boils off
http://beerlegends.com/farnesene-oil


For a list of Hops with Oils listed see...
http://www.usahops.org/graphics/File/HG ... -24-12.pdf

Sorry for the long "old School" post, Please add or remove any thing that you can. It will help.
Last edited by joshua on 11 Nov 2012, 23:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #43 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Good Day AydanRogers, If you do a MashOut, the Wort will be thinner and the bag will Drain quicker!

Or if you want to try FWH for a smoother bitterness, and a milder hop flavor, Pull the bag at the end of mash, and add the hops, reinstall the grain bag, then go to mashout.

This doesn't take much time, but can be a mess.

The 25 minutes from "Mashout to Boil" helps improve the FWH features.
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Post #45 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
joshua wrote:...allowing the oils to be absorbed into the wort...
Dunno where you find all this stuff joshua. Good on you :thumbs:.

You also mentioned you'd read that, "the hop oils REALLY LIKE the grist, and most of the oils leave with the grist." So, I'm thinking that Aydan has two options open to him...

1. Add the hops after mash-out (after the bag/grist is removed).
2. Add the hops at the end of the mash while waiting for the mash-out (before the bag/grist is removed).

My question is, forgetting the time factor, if he does option 2, will the oils dissolve into the wort or will they be lost to the grist?

Would Aydan be better off with option 1? Maybe he could pull the bag at mash out, add the hops and do a slow rise to boiling point to allow the hops to have more contact time pre-boil?

Bob better stay on his beer diet I think. As he said, much research needs to be done :lol:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Nov 2012, 08:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #48 made 11 years ago
by joshua
PP, The grist will take the oils away (I have done it...Damn).
if there is only 10 minutes from end of mash to mashout, not alot is lost.

If you have time, do the Mashout, pull the bag, install another(hopSack) and Slowly raise the temperature to boil(30-40minutes), watch the hot break form, and smell the SMM/DMS oder, and then smell the lost hop Aroma, and start the boil.

AydanRodgers, That is a way to go, there may be a little Flavor oils lost, but, the Bitterness is starting to melt and mix with the grist and wort, so you may lose a little FWH.
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