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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:45 pm
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Location: Canada, Formerly UK
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:42 pm 
I think I have finished investigating and experimenting for my Guinges project. I’m off now for a week or two to finalise the project and give you all a much needed break. I can report back with results. Say right now if you don’t want a report, or forever hold your peace :)

The project will incorporate everything I have learnt on here and everything I have developed through experimentation and research.

I have learnt a lot and had a lot of help on this site, and I really appreciate that. I hope that in return my ideas have stimulated some thought and interesting discussion.

I acquired better tools for the project here in the form of the BIABacus. And I threw out my previous program. I appreciate that also.

The project will consist of:

1) Highly hopped SMaSH BIAB IPA, http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2013

2) First Wort Hopping http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/05/09/first-wort-hopping/

3) Hop Bursting (late hopping) http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

4) Full mash BIAB/extract wort hybrid. http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2004

5) Free range mashing http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1880

6) No chill in the brew kettle with the lid on. (Tried it, worked ok for this beer) http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/06/06/australian-no-chill-brewing-technique-tested/

7) Leaving the hops in for the ferment. (Tried it, works well)

8) Fermenting in the brew kettle http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1914

The idea is to make the best possible IPA beer with the maximum of ease, simplicity and time efficiency.

Simplifying brewing techniques in such a way could be a first step towards the development of an automated BIAB brewing and fermenting machine.

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Last edited by GuingesRock on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:19 pm 
Have fun with it GR :peace:. Make sure you keep some bottles aside and see if you can put them in a comp as that will help pick up any faults that your buds might not be able to pick up.

:luck:

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Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:27 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:48 pm 
Guinges,

Quote:
I think I have finished investigating and experimenting for my Guinges project. I’m off now for a week or two to finalize the project and give you all a much needed break. I can report back with results. Say right now if you don’t want a report, or forever hold your peace :)


Thanks for the time off! Very much appreciated. :luck:

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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:45 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:52 am 
Doing this in stages. First the AG FWH BIAB Free Range Mash part. I didn’t insulate the pot or re-heat, and the mash went from 156F to 148F over a 90 min mash period. I pulled the bag, warmed the wort back up to 155f and steeped 4 oz Cascade leaf hops for 30 mins (temp dropped to 150F over 30 mins) then boiled for 1 hour with one further 10 min addition of 4 oz Cascade leaf hops, then chilled with chiller. Have been drinking it for 10 days. We did notice the smoother bitterness and the improved flavour. It has a lot of the cascade citrusy, mango, peppery flavour. It’s a FWH version of the house beer, and it has become the new house beer.

I put it into BIABacus and it came up with 79.5% efficiency and an attenuation of 78%. OG was 1.068, FG was 1.015, ABV 6.8%. Grain bill 15.5 lbs Marris Otter only. TWN 9 gallons. EOBV-A 26L. VIP 5.36Gal

I have the no-chilled, extract hybrid, version of the same beer fermenting.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:22 am 
Finished this little project with the No-Chilled, full volume mash BIAB/extract Hybrid version of the above beer.

Everything the same as the beer above, except for three differences in the brewing.

1. I warmed 5 gallons of water in another pot and dissolved 2KG Muntons amber DME and 2 KG of light DME. After I pulled the bag from the main pot, I added the DME solution and then raised the temp to 155F for the FWH etc. etc. Thus I doubled the batch size by adding extract and water.

2. I didn’t chill the wort. I left it at room temperature and it didn’t cool down to pitching temperature until about 30 hours later. I no-chilled it in the brew kettle with the lid on, then pitched and fermented in the kettle (with the lid on).

3. I moved the 10 minute hop addition to flame out in order to compensate a bit for the no-chill.

OG 1.072, FG 1.015, ABV 7.89%

I was expecting to see problems with the no-chill, I thought it would affect the hop flavour. Also I wondered how the DME top up might affect flavour. I sneakily calculated the DME addition to increase the ABV a bit.

I didn’t notice any problems with this batch. It tasted slightly more alcoholic, but otherwise it seemed to be just as delicious. My beer drinking significant other (BDSO) said she thought it was the best beer yet, and it was really great.

It tastes like a rather alcoholic, bitter creamy lemonade, with an amazing floral sort of aroma, that I think would make a good perfume.

This stuff tastes good fresh and I think is better served at room temperature or a bit below. I think it is better not carbonated, or only slightly carbonated. That way it has a definite creamy mouth feel, which may come from the FWH. I wonder if the bite from chill and high carbonation might mask FWH benefits a bit.

I don’t know if any of this is of interest to anyone. I did it for my own benefit and I’m not trying to make a point. I’m happy :)

And so this project ends. Although I do wonder about putting all of the hops in the FWH now, and how that would taste. I read someone say (Brad Smith) that it turns out well, and I like the results of my FWH trial.

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Location: Melbourne, Australia 37.9218; 145.0357
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:04 pm 
Good luck and keep us posted. Be keen to know how the Eazy IPA turns out!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:14 am 
Thanks very much PP, Bob and BrewBagMan

PP. I will have to figure out the competition thing eventually.

GuingesRock wrote:
And so this project ends. Although I do wonder about putting all of the hops in the FWH now, and how that would taste. I read someone say (Brad Smith) that it turns out well, and I like the results of my FWH trial.

I’m just bringing to the boil a 2 Corny batch of all-grain FWH hopped only. I couldn’t resist.

Grain Bill: 25lbs of Marris Otter

Hop Bill: One single addition, 16oz bag of Cascade dried leaf hops, all thrown into the FWH.

I think it might be good.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:06 am 
I’m testing the 2 Corny batch of FWH only MO/Cascade SMaSH. , 25 lbs MO. One addition of 16 oz bag of Cascade Leaf hops all into the First Wort Hop. OG 1.070, FG 1.018, ABV 7.2%, EOBV-A 11.25 Gal.

It’s really smooth. Full of flavour, with some new cascade flavour that I haven’t experienced before. It’s amazing!

That’s seriously good stuff!....

....Just went for another taste to make sure. Yep, It’s really good! Key words “smooth” and “flavour.”

It’s the new Guinges tipple!

I might put some in a French press/Bodem with leaf hops, as a method of dry hopping, at some future date for added excitement. :party:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:31 am 
Todd, here’s an update for you on your Styrian Goldings. I understood it was the late additions that were supposed to be moved to FWH, but it doesn’t really matter because I am putting all of my hops into the FWH. For 10 gallons, after pulling the bag, I bring the wort to 155F and throw in 1lb of hops (pellet or leaf) and let them sit for 30 mins (the temperature drops to 150F) and then bring slowly to the boil and boil for an hour. I have been chilling but I am going to try no-chilling since I don’t really see the point of chilling when there are no late additions.

I still use one base malt only (Marris Otter which is floor malted) so that the hop flavours can be really appreciated.

I have been getting wonderful flavours with this method. I’m not really good at describing flavours but HbgBill gave a great description of his Cascade beer which fitted my Cascade version perfectly. "Well, there is a hint of grapefruit.. but, the overwhelming thing the strikes me is FLORAL with the hint of citrus. Very mild spiciness,"

The Styrian Goldings version that I just kegged is also amazing. I would say that the Cascade version would be the masculine version and the Styrian Goldings would be feminine. A bit like drinking the flowers from a lilac bush maybe (I told you I was bad at that). I can’t say which I like best, but I really like them both. Thank you very much Todd for the Styrian Goldings recommendation.

I am guessing that the bitterness I am getting with this method is around 50 IBU’s which would fit with Bobs podcast that he posted on not being able to get higher than 50IBUs with early additions. I experience the smoothness that’s described with FWH. We were in the city yesterday (Halifax) with friends and they took us to a fancy beer shop and I bought some very expensive, highly hopped IPA’s to check them out, and I must say that I would have been disappointed if I had brewed them. The bitterness, and also the carbonation were harsh and you had to wait quite a while for your mouth to recover before you could take another swig. Not so my FWH beer, it dangerously slips down the throat one swig after. I discovered that I spent as much on two bottles of beer as I do making 5 gallons. All in all, that was a good learning experience.

I realised after previous posts that in fact the method I am using isn’t entirely FWH, since I leave the hops in for the boil and also leave them in the fermentor during the full ferment. It occurred to me that alcohol might be also extracting something from the hops…possibly, but then maybe not.

I’m also kegging after one week in the fermentor, using more of the natural carbonation and just keeping the kegs on CO2 pressure that is just high enough to enable pouring. I am also keeping the kegs at cellar temperature. These things I learnt from the Real Ale thread viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2067&hilit=real+ale – Thanks guys :thumbs:

I gave up on adding extract to up the batch size and just use all grain and maxi a little (you were right Aces :) )

A lot of this stuff I learnt about on this site, including FWH. I’m one very happy BIABrewer.info customer. Thanks very much to the owners and organisers of this site and the contributors.

My father-in law just came around and I gave him a couple of beers. He said it reminded him so much of some very expensive beer he had oncce, made by some Belgian monks who make their beer under a tarp with open fermentation and bees and all sorts get in it and they strain it. He said it had the same smoothness and was just as amazing.

From the original post, the “Guinges project” beer has evolved to become a highly hopped, high ABV, FWH only, SMaSH IPA, using free range mashing, fermenting in the kettle and leaving hops in for the ferment, with real-ale simulation. No-chill in the kettle with the lid on, is likely to become a feature.

Step by Step:
12.5 gallons of water in 16 gal pot
Heat to 168F
Rain in 25lbs (or 27.5lbs which would be half a sack) of crushed Marris Otter and stir.
Don’t re-heat or insulate the mash.
Leave for 90 mins. The temp drops to 158 after adding the grain and then to 150 after 90 mins with the free range (not insulated) mash,
Pull bag.
Place bag into another pot containing 2 gallons of water at 170F for a bit and then drain the bag and pour into the main pot.
Bring main pot to 155F, throw in 1lb of pellet or leaf hops (Cascade or Styrian Goldings) and leave for 30 mins. The temperature drops to around 150F
Bring to boil and boil for 1 hour.
Chill to pitching temp (about 25C) in the kettle and then sprinkle on the surface, 3 packs of Safale US-05. Wait half an hour and then whisk with a Starsaned large whisk until the wort is thick and foamy.
Leave in the kettle to ferment for 1 week at 20C, with the lid on and then keg. The kettle has a bazooka screen on the inside. If you are using pellet hops instead of leaf hops then some pellet hop mush gets through into the kegs, but who cares! It still tastes good!
Leave the keg at room temperature for 3 days and then move to cellar temp. Keep on CO2 at a low pressure. Just high enough to enable serving.
It can be drunk as soon as it is in the keg and it is delicious. As time goes on it becomes crystal clear (after about 10 days) with my water which is fairly hard.
EOBV-A 11.25 gal
OG – 1.070
FG – 1.018
ABV – 7.2%
Let me know if you try it and you like it.

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Last edited by GuingesRock on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:48 am 
"I’m also kegging after one week in the fermentor, using more of the natural carbonation and just keeping the kegs on CO2 pressure that is just high enough to enable pouring. I am also keeping the kegs at cellar temperature"

GR, as long as you are keeping co2 pressure on your keg you are carbonating.
The co2 will assimilate into the beer if it is present.Real Ale uses no outside co2 for any reason.
I can understand what you are trying to do but would probably be better off using CO2 only when you need to serve the beer and shutting it off when not needed. This will protect the beer with a blanket of CO2 with out dissolving into the beer itself.
If you keep the pressure on it will go into the beer and carbonate it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:53 pm 
Thanks for the discussion Lylo, I realise all that stuff. That’s why I said real-ale “simulation” rather than “real-ale”.

The way I do it seems to work to produce low carbonated beer, with less harsh carbonation.

There is a good discussion on all the points you mentioned on the Real-Ale thread.

Good idea about putting the CO2 on intermittently but it doesn’t work (I tried it before here) because, at these low carbonation levels, the CO2 in the kegs is absorbed by the beer and the kegs start developing negative pressure with the tendency to suck in air, so that is why I recommend keeping the CO2 on the kegs constantly at a very low pressure. Kind of like a poor man’s cask breather.

So yes, artificial carbonation is occurring by the application of CO2, but to a much lesser extent, in the first week or two any-way. I can’t say what would happen over the longer term as I haven’t experimented with that. Possibly more and more carbonation would occur as time went on. I think the trick is to keep the pressure very low and don’t take too long to drink the beer ;) or just accept higher carbonation as time goes on. Maybe that's the time to start disconnecting the CO2.

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