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Priming free bottling

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by mally
Just a quick question for anyone that has an idea;

Is it easy to work out when to bottle a beer so that it finishes the fermentation in the bottle without adding priming sugar?

Here is an example; say i have a wort that is at 1.020, and i "KNOW" it will end up at around 1.010 when complete. How many volumes of C02 will that give me?
I was just wondering if i could crash chill a fermentation at a certain gravity (to help drop yeast) then bottle it?

I am also going to presume that this will not be an exact calculation, I am only looking for "ballpark" figures here. So say it could be calculated within a "safe" range of 1-3 volumes :scratch:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #2 made 11 years ago
by Yeasty
Nice idea but I thing you are relying on the sugars left being fermentable. I think its a bit of a risk but doable.

If you use a calculator to estimate the amount of sugar you would require for carbonation you can calculate the amount of points this would give. Add this to your expected FG and that's your stopping point.

Soooo the maths. 21L of beer required FG 1.011 at 2.5 volumes of CO2 ( this is made up numbers)

Sugar with a potential of 370/Kg/L.

For 2.5 volumes you need say 140g of sugar.

Extract potential x Kg / amount of beer = gravity points

370 x 0.14 / 21 = 2.5 points

1.011 + 2.5 = 1.0135.

So if you stop at around 1.014 you should be right.

You could do this though Kraeusening

:luck:
Last edited by Yeasty on 02 Feb 2013, 18:16, edited 2 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by Yeasty
Lylo wrote:This is doable but much safer in a keg.
+1 I've kegged "stuck" beers with the knowledge that if they started fermenting again I'd be safe.
Last edited by Yeasty on 02 Feb 2013, 23:17, edited 2 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by mally
Cheers Yeasty.
I knew there was maths involved, I just couldn't get my a$$ in gear to do it!
It is actually quite a surprise to me, I would never had thought that 3/4 gravity points would be enough for carbonation, but there you go. :scratch:

Krausening isn't really an option either, as i tend to do one brew, ferment, rack, condition, prime & bottle.
I just thought that i could ferment, bottle, and the conditioning & carbonation is done in the bottle.

I am aware of the risks; and i wouldn't recommend anybody try it due of safety concerns. However, I only ever use Coopers PET bottles, so could keep a check on carbonation (squeeze test), and if they were to ever get too carbonated, I can easily do a quick unscrew/screw of the cap to release pressure.

I may actually try it on my next brew, just not the current one. As this is a an all Brett brew, and those are too wild and wayward. I don't think even the beasts themselves know what they're going to do! :o

cheers :thumbs:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Mally,

My mother, fifty years ago had those old cider bottles, with the screw in corks that had the rubber washers. She did your process with bottling early, but she left the corks slightly loose initially to prevent too much pressure building up. She had the knack of knowing exactly when to screw the lids down tight…well sort of. My sister in France kept all my father’s letters, and she has a really funny one from him, describing how he was sitting quietly in his chair reading his book, and the bottles which were beside his chair started exploding. He said it was an assassination attempt.

I’ve seen some 2L bottles of “wort” (with nasty looking ingredients) in the LHBS. They come with a yeast pellet and a cheap pressure releasing plastic cap. The idea is that you throw in the yeast pellet, change the cap to the pressure valve cap, and hay presto! You have “beer” in two weeks. That idea of both fermenting and conditioning in the bottle intrigued me. I wonder if anyone has tried it with real beer. I suppose it's like Mad_Scientist's pressure fermenting in the keg http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1933

If it was possible to get some of those cheap caps that release pressure when it gets too high, for your PET bottles, it might be just the thing. It might be possible to improvise something like that too, or even just leave the caps slightly loose initially, or release the pressure as necessary like you say. What pressure can beer go up to? what pressure is needed to break a PET bottle? You could try stainless steel bottles too. I froze several that were full of beer by mistake. They were frozen solid and didn’t break. That’s a hell of a pressure to withstand. http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1911

Ps. Found my dad's letter to my sister from about 45 years ago. It was elderflower champagne for us kids, and not beer....
Not much in the way of news apart from Betty's assassination attempt on me. She called it elderflower champagne. "It's no good" she said "no fizz" but at supper yesterday
I offered some to Mark and Polly and nearly got blown to buggery. There were 4 more of them (flagons) lined up beside my chair all in a critical state of immanent explosion.
J.K. has got a massive bird-scaring device operating day and night, just up behind the cottage. It produces a report equal to a 4.7 calibre artillery piece every 50
seconds. This nerve wracking sound barrage produces an attenuated state of consciousness, sort of waking sleep during the day, sort of sleeping wake during the night,
all this resulting in a psychopathic edginess unsuitable for sustaining sudden interruptions of high velocity elderflower foam. Fortunately I'm a fairly level-headed, even-tempered
well-balanced, unflappable sort of chap, well used to dealing with sudden emergencies, not to mention life or death situations, so the only casualty was 'what'sit' the new
kitten (it's had so many names tried out on it since it's arrival that that's what it's now called.) It left the room in such a hurry that it failed to break hard enough when it
reached the other room fire-place and was halted by the brickwork
Last edited by GuingesRock on 03 Feb 2013, 19:37, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by thughes
mally wrote:Cheers Yeasty.
I may actually try it on my next brew, just not the current one. As this is a an all Brett brew, and those are too wild and wayward. I don't think even the beasts themselves know what they're going to do! :o

cheers :thumbs:
Just a thought.....

Not relative to an all brett but something to consider: There are some beers out there that undergo primary fermentation with normal sacc yeast. Once finished, they are bottled without priming solution but instead brett is added. The brett will ferment sugars that the sacc could not, therefore providing carbonation in the bottle without priming sugar. The downside is that using brett for a secondary fermentation will give you that "funk" that brett is known for (while using it for primary fermentation does not produce that characteristic brett funk).

---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 03 Feb 2013, 22:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
by mally
Cheers Todd,

That was an interesting piece of history, certainly made me laugh anyway. :lol:

I know of Brett secondary, but even that scares me, as i have heard of others having FG below 1 :argh:
Imagine if i bottled at 1.008, and it went to 1.000 (I am thinking artillery)!

I have also seen others that install a tyre (tire) valve into their cap for force carbonating, but could also be used for pressure relief i suppose.
tyre cap.jpg
I was hoping to avoid all this though, and just try to get to a ballpark level of carbonation.
Thanks to all for the input though. I will definitely update with any findings if/when i get around to it.
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Last edited by mally on 04 Feb 2013, 16:41, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain
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