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BIABacus Bulk Priming Calculator

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by hermanpeckel
So, I'm assuming that because there aren't already posts here on the issue that the problem is my end, but I can't work it out and would love some help.

Before BIABing, hence before discovering this site, I had been using one of the many bulk priming calculators on the web. After making the transition, I still relied on these rather than BIABacus, usually because it was easier to quickly access via my phone.

Now I have moved to all BIABacus, I have noticed the amount of dextrose required to be very different. For instance, the 19 litres (secondary volume) that I would like to prime to 2.5 volumes requires 105 grams of dextrose in BIABacus. Here is what I get from one of the many online calculators (in this case http://www.brewblogger.net/?page=tools& ... =calculate)

Calculate Priming Sugar

Desired C02 Saturation: 2.5 volumes
Amount of Liquid: 19 liters
Amount of Priming Sugar: 144.21 grams of corn sugar (dextrose)

Calculations derived from Mark Hibber's article from hbd.org.

Like I said, I'm sure it's a case of PEBKAC, but I can't work it out. Any help appreciated.

Thanks in advance
HP
Last edited by hermanpeckel on 15 Aug 2014, 11:07, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
hermanpeckel wrote:...I'm assuming that because there aren't already posts here on the issue that the problem is my end...
No, the problem is not on your end and it is an excellent question. It has been brought up before but finding the threads is not easy. What I'll do is copy a post here from an older thread as it won't hurt to have several threads on this. Here you go...
PistolPatch wrote:This is interesting. 2trout is getting gushers on the BIABacus and rockbottom is getting undercarbonation.

So, what's going on? :scratch:. This has been bugging me for ages so let's dig a little deeper...

Let's assume 19 L (5 gals) of beer that has to be primed and that it has been sitting at say 15 C (59 F) and that we want 2.5 Vols of CO2. Then, with corn sugar...

BIABacus says 100 grams or 3.5 oz
Brewing Classic Styles (John Palmer) says 100 grams or 3.5 oz
BobBrew's Formula says 113 grams or 4.0 oz
PistolPatch's Carbonation Lollies equate to 180 grams or 6.35 oz
New Brewing Lager (Gregory Noonan) says 212 grams or 7.5 oz

Figure that one out :roll:. I have no idea what to do with this atm apart from leave it as is :smoke:,
PP

P.S1. Dextrose (corn sugar) is pretty much always used as the priming sugar by micro breweries etc.

P.S2. To ensure that kegged beer and bottled beer turns out to have the same alcohol content, breweries add water to the beer being primed to compensate for the alcohol added by the priming sugar. (Only learned that one two days ago - thanks DanT ;))
That post can be found here and the rest of that thread has more info. When someone finds the answer please let me know.[/quote] The formulas the BIABacus uses is pretty sophisticated but who knows it it is necessarily correct? It's the only formula I really am still not satisfied with.

The number you have come up with herman based on calcs by Mark Hibber from Melbourne might be the way to go. Looks like a good compromise. Lots of other discrepancies in priming formulas especially when it comes to naturally priming kegs (check this thread out :roll:).

Good timing Herman as I am just starting to write the help for Section Q today which also acts as a finalisation of formulas.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Aug 2014, 15:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by hermanpeckel
Ahhh... Thanks PP!! I thought I either I was going mad or it was a case of RTFM.

As a matter of interest, can you shed some light on what else is a factor in carbonation? The only thing I am aware of is the amount of dissolved CO2 in the beer to start with. Assumedly there is more to it than that.

Thanks
HP

Post #4 made 9 years ago
by Rick
Slightly off current course, but on topic ... I am going to naturally prime a keg for the first time very soon.

I almost did this for an upcoming competition, but I did not want to introduce anything new for that. Too risky.

So far, I've done my ales 2.25 volumes, and have been very happy with the result on the bottling end. I seem to require more psi than BIABacus estimate for co2 carbing in keg, but it's trivial.

My house APA is being dry hopped right now, and will go into the keg mid next week. Kinda been worried that it might come out different considering less dextrose will be needed to prime the keg, so has anyone experience across the different methods using BIABacus? Might soothe my worries some. :D
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
We definitley need a lot more feedback on this whole area Rick. (Looking forward to your upcoming comp :luck:)
hermanpeckel wrote:As a matter of interest, can you shed some light on what else is a factor in carbonation? The only thing I am aware of is the amount of dissolved CO2 in the beer to start with. Assumedly there is more to it than that.
Bit rushed atm herman but dissolved CO2 plus the sugar you add seems about it for me as well except...

There was one other thing which I never thought about and I only discovered thanks to your first post here was in this article, Mark Hibberd metnions...
This simple method of calculating the priming rate can be complicated by the CO2 generated by the slow breakdown and fermentation of dextrins, particularly in strong all-malt beers. This is rather difficult to estimate. Although it will be negligible in most beers, it is said to be sufficient to fully carbonate some high gravity beers that are stored many months before drinking (maybe producing up to 1 vol. CO2).
Definitely a tricky area and I'm off to review the various articles now (which I meant to do yeaterday :roll:).

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Aug 2014, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Excuse the consecutive posts.
hermanpeckel wrote:As a matter of interest, can you shed some light on what else is a factor in carbonation? The only thing I am aware of is the amount of dissolved CO2 in the beer to start with. Assumedly there is more to it than that.
I've pulled out the big guns for this, "Malting and Brewing Science" by Hough, Briggs, Stevens and Young.

This is going to require quite some study as it has no formulas, just tables. Already though I have found...

1. Atmospheric pressure of fermentation vessel makes some difference. (i.e. if you ferment on a mountain, there will be less dissolved CO2 than if you Fremont at sea level. This is ignored in all formulas.

2. pH can make a difference although I don't think this will matter much in beer.

3. So far, I can't find any of the existing formulas matching "Malting and Brewing Science."

I'll work on the maths tomorrow with a lot of coffee!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Aug 2014, 21:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Join the club ;). This area is really messy and actually has no end to its complexity.

Skip this post and jump to the next one.

Just going to put a few notes in here before I forget it all. Basically we have the usual mess of info out there and in this area it becomes a lot harder because of all the different measurement systems (temp/pressure, volume/grams of Co2 etc). Before I lose them, here are a few links that will not be too useful to anyone else but it's best I put them here...

http://nationalhomebrew.com.au/brewers-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... lk-priming
http://www.hbd.org/brewery/library/YPrimerMH.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... arbonation
Lots of others but these are the ones that will be hard for me to find again.

Elevations (not included in V2 and probably won't need to.)

Sea Level = 1.03 kg/cm2
2500 ft = 762 m = 0.943 kg/cm2
5000 ft = 1524m = 0.860 kg/cm2
10000 ft = 3048 m = 0.711 kg/cm2

V2 Calculator in next post is based on more in depth research than V1. Residual calcs in V1 were correct but sugar contributions seemed to be low which agrees with my personal experience.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Aug 2014, 00:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
BIABrewer Temporary Priming Calculator V2

Please let me know if this calculator agrees with your own personal experience as it is what I intend to put into the final BIABacus.
BIABrewer Temporary Priming Calculator V2.xls
The above is under review. Final formulas will be a compromise between V1 and V2.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Aug 2014, 00:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by bundy
I have been using a higher figure than BIABacus calcs and have been happy with carbonation so far.

BIABacus was quoting ~ 130 grams Vs The Calc I use ~ 150 grams Dextrose

Online Calc I ended up sticking with so far is -

http://webspace.webring.com/people/ms/s ... lator.html

I had tried other calculators, but I found they caused over-priming, so for me the figures I get from above suit pretty well.
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
[Need lots of feedback on your own experiences on this one. New members could offer some good data here.]

Thanks bundy :salute:,

I've had a wade through old notes and I actually can't find the original notes on the existing BIABacus formula. I didn't write the original formula and I suspect that a 15% error was made in it. I've gone through and re-studied everything and re-written all the formulas in metric.

Note that on the various calculators if you want 2.5 Vols CO2 in 19 L (5.02 gal) still beer fermented at 18 C (64.4 F) then...

Pre-Release BIABacus V1 - 105 g / 3.7 oz (See note above - If you multiply this by 1.15, you will get 121 g / 4.27 oz)

TastyBrew - 122 g / 4.3 oz Wrong formula for dextrose (1.075 x table sugar instead of 1.15)

Northern Brewer - 121 g /4.28 oz Wrong formula? for dextrose (1.1 x table sugar instead of 1.15)

BrewBlogger - 140 g / 4.94 oz

hbd (Beer Recipator) - 121 g / 4.27 oz Wrong formula? for dextrose (1.05 x table sugar instead of 1.15)

Webring 121 g / 4.27 oz Wrong formula? for dextrose (1.05 x table sugar instead of 1.15)

Pre-Release BIABacus V3 - 149 g / 5.24 oz (This matches the science.)

[center]Current Summary[/center]
Have spent a lot of time on this over the last few days and just when I thought I was understanding everything, I found this. The above discrepancies may perhaps arise from the definition of dextrose (what I would call corn sugar) and sucrose (table sugar)? (Don't you love articles like that they say, "The amount of carbonation produced by three different priming agents (anhydrous glucose, glucose monohydrate and sucrose) and then don't define them in common language :shoot: :shoot: :shoot:.)

Anyway the residual CO2 formulas are all fairly close so the real question is how much CO2 does the sugar add to the beer? All the sites above that say add 121 g / 4.27 oz don't display any science. The BIABacus V2 result above is based on the only sites that do display some science.

Main thing for now is more feedback.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Aug 2014, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by the-erl
Hi All,

Interesting topic :think: I've been using the Biabacus priming calc since making the move to all grain BIAB brewing and have found most, not all, to be a little flatter than I expected.

I bottled my last brew yesterday evening and used the temp priming calculator V2, in your post PP, to compare with the Biabacus.

The 2 amounts differ significantly, as I suppose is to be expected after reading the thread, Biabacus indicating 109 grams of corn sugar and the temp calc 150 grams, I used the suggested amount in the temp calculator. Ive attached the 2 files if anyone is interested and will report back once the beer has been conditioning for a while, or as long as I can wait for. :lol:

Erl :peace:
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Erl, What temperature are you Conditioning at?????

A cool temperature can really slow the Yeast.
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks a heap Erl for reviving this thread. So many things on the go atm, but will double-check where the main release calcs are at. This is one thing that could have easily been missed :salute:.
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Post #15 made 9 years ago
by the-erl
Cheers Joshua, I try to condition at a temp a few degrees higher than fermenting temp (only been one occasion when i haven't been able to) and so far only brewed ales so conditioning around 26°C.

Got the bottled beers in my fermenting fridge with the temp set at 30°C at the moment and will leave em there for a few more days.

Post #16 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Erl, those Temperature are good for the Bottles and the beer, Well Done!
Image
Last edited by joshua on 05 Mar 2015, 09:07, edited 1 time in total.
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