There's probably a very simple answer to this question which I was asked recently but I didn't have it. Im sure someone out there can help me out.
We always talk about oxidisation and not splashing the wort around when filling kegs/bottles, there's also hot side aeration talk and all sorts of rumours etc about this.
So how come when we put the wort into the fermenter its ok to shake the shit out of it and get as much air into it as possible. Wont this cause some type of oxidisation?
I usually pour half the no chill cube into the fermenter, put the lid back on it and shake it up till its all foam then pour the second half into the fermenter. Since that question ive been pondering this and wondering if I should be doing things differently.
Post #2 made 11 years ago
Good Day, MY understanding of oxidation is it can happen anytime and is bad.
It is bad for fermentation too, because yeast cells will use oxygen, and break down sugars all the way to CO2 and H2O with no alcohol, and the growth rate for yeast is fantastic!!!
So the reason we shake the S^%t out of the fementer is the give a lot of oxygen to the Yeast for fast multiplication of yeast.
But, I think it makes bad beer, so I have to let some air into the wort while transfering
it from the No-chill to the fermenter, but as little as possible.
I ONCE hooked up an aqurium pump the the fermenter and ran it for a long time. The fermetation was FANTASTIC, I ended up with Crap that had no alcohol, and tasted like wet paper.
So,I try to limit contact to the air, as best as possile, including after pouring the beer into a glass!!!!
It is bad for fermentation too, because yeast cells will use oxygen, and break down sugars all the way to CO2 and H2O with no alcohol, and the growth rate for yeast is fantastic!!!
So the reason we shake the S^%t out of the fementer is the give a lot of oxygen to the Yeast for fast multiplication of yeast.
But, I think it makes bad beer, so I have to let some air into the wort while transfering
it from the No-chill to the fermenter, but as little as possible.
I ONCE hooked up an aqurium pump the the fermenter and ran it for a long time. The fermetation was FANTASTIC, I ended up with Crap that had no alcohol, and tasted like wet paper.
So,I try to limit contact to the air, as best as possile, including after pouring the beer into a glass!!!!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
Nice topic..
So there must be some correlation between pitching rate and oxygen level to achieve the perfect fermentation. If you make a large starter your oxygen requirements will be less than if you are just using 11g of dried.
I have just been pouring from my cube into the FV from a height and giving it a bit of a beating with a spoon. Seems to work ok for me.
So there must be some correlation between pitching rate and oxygen level to achieve the perfect fermentation. If you make a large starter your oxygen requirements will be less than if you are just using 11g of dried.
I have just been pouring from my cube into the FV from a height and giving it a bit of a beating with a spoon. Seems to work ok for me.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
I have also been wondering why we don't make a huge stir-plates for our fermenters, if we do so for a starter. In Yorkshire squares they pump yeast from the bottom and spray it over the upper section for 5 mins every 3 hours during active fermentation according to pocast I heard with Black Sheep brewery. Shouldn't this cause oxidisation?
Post #5 made 11 years ago
I was thinking that the best way to avoid this oxidisation would be to make a starter on the stirplate then put it in the fridge to drop the yeast, then drain the oxidised liquid off and pour the rest of slurry into the fermenter. At the same time draining the wort in without splashing it.
This whole procedure just seems ridiculously time consuming though and I dont know how much it would actually improve the beer
This whole procedure just seems ridiculously time consuming though and I dont know how much it would actually improve the beer
Post #6 made 11 years ago
I think an experiment would be thing to easy to do.
Brew a 20L batch. (VIF)
Using 5 5L demijons (1 gal carboys) syphon 1L of wort into the first, 2L into the second etc. Cover and shake each demijon to oxygenate with the air in the deadspace. Each consecutive sample will have less airspace so therefore less oxygen available, and each sample will be less oxygenated than the previous. Top up each demijon to 4L with the remaining wort. Pitch the same amount of yeast in each sample fit airlock and ferment out.
Rack bottle/condition/taste.
What do you think ?
You could even just fill one to 4L straight from the kettle with minimal splashing and no shaking therefore minimal oxygen
Brew a 20L batch. (VIF)
Using 5 5L demijons (1 gal carboys) syphon 1L of wort into the first, 2L into the second etc. Cover and shake each demijon to oxygenate with the air in the deadspace. Each consecutive sample will have less airspace so therefore less oxygen available, and each sample will be less oxygenated than the previous. Top up each demijon to 4L with the remaining wort. Pitch the same amount of yeast in each sample fit airlock and ferment out.
Rack bottle/condition/taste.
What do you think ?
You could even just fill one to 4L straight from the kettle with minimal splashing and no shaking therefore minimal oxygen
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.htmlYou should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.
Last edited by BobBrews on 04 Jan 2013, 21:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
Hot side aeration and post-fermentation oxidation are two separate things that have roughly the same name attached to them. Bobs post above talks about HSA. Hopefully I can address the post-fermentation aspect below.Aces high wrote:We always talk about oxidisation and not splashing the wort around when filling kegs/bottles, there's also hot side aeration talk and all sorts of rumours etc about this.
First, take a look at this link from Wyeast.Aces high wrote:So how come when we put the wort into the fermenter its ok to shake the shit out of it and get as much air into it as possible. Wont this cause some type of oxidisation?
The reason you can, and in fact is highly desirable to shake your fermenter or add pure oxygen to aerate/oxygenate your cooled wort prior to fermentation is that yeast go through phases from the time they are pitched to the wort to the time the finished beer is racked off. These yeast has different "dietary" requirements during these phases. At first, yeast require oxygen to reproduce. This is the growth phase and is aerobic.
Once the yeast cell count is large enough to handle the volume and gravity of the wort the yeast begin fermentation, which is anaerobic. This is where sugar is metobolized into CO2 and alcohol. From this point on, addition of oxygen will oxidize the wort/beer causing off flavors.Yeast use oxygen for cell membrane synthesis. Without oxygen, cell growth will be extremely limited. Yeast can only produce sterols and certain unsaturated fatty acids necessary for cell growth in the presence of oxygen.
Inadequate oxygenation will lead to inadequate yeast growth. Inadequate yeast growth can cause poor attenuation, inconsistent or long fermentations, production of undesirable flavor and aroma compounds, and produces yeast that are not fit for harvesting and re-pitching.
Now, there is an optimal range of oxygen to add to wort prior to fermentation, see link above. Adding pure oxygen for more than a few minutes or continually stirring during fermentation, although good for yeast health, is not a good idea for beer flavor.
Hopefully this helps.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 04 Jan 2013, 23:23, edited 2 times in total.
Post #9 made 11 years ago
Very interesting thread.
So if you pitch dry yeast on the surface it will go through its initial aerobic growth phase on the surface, right in contact with the air/oxygen above. What's wrong with that? The yeast goes crazy on the surface. After reading this (particularly Joshua's bit) I'm tempted not to bother with aeration and see how it goes.
So if you pitch dry yeast on the surface it will go through its initial aerobic growth phase on the surface, right in contact with the air/oxygen above. What's wrong with that? The yeast goes crazy on the surface. After reading this (particularly Joshua's bit) I'm tempted not to bother with aeration and see how it goes.
Guinges
Post #10 made 11 years ago
Good Day, To take this Topic off into the Sky, Waste some time and look over this HomeBrew topic...
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/using-o ... gen-47872/
And Download this .PDF....http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf and really Re-think Airetion And Oxydation!!!!
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/using-o ... gen-47872/
And Download this .PDF....http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf and really Re-think Airetion And Oxydation!!!!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
Joshua, That microscopic amount of olive oil, if added to the wort, would float on the surface and help the dried yeast that's floating there, along with the air it is in contact with???? (I'm being a bugger. I know! but I'm wondering if the two together might work and negate aeration)
Guinges
Post #12 made 11 years ago
Guinges, I have read you can stir the O-oil into the wort first to dispurse it, then top the Yeast.
A few say it works well if you add the O-oil to the Hot wort before Cooling/No-Chill.
I am going to try this on the next batch, due to 2 airborne Infections. I don't like "Brett", And forgot "don't Pickle Peppers near Fermentation"
A few say it works well if you add the O-oil to the Hot wort before Cooling/No-Chill.
I am going to try this on the next batch, due to 2 airborne Infections. I don't like "Brett", And forgot "don't Pickle Peppers near Fermentation"
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
[Started to write stuff on olive oil here but it became too long. Can you guys start another thread on that one? If you do, I promise to disagree a lot ]
BobBrew's and BrickBrewHaus's post above are spot on. Let me make it short for the first time in my life!
1. Avoid aggressively agitating your wort any time it is hot. (There is no downside to doing this).
2. Aerate your wort aggressively, once cooled, before pitching. (There is no downside to doing this unless you are really lazy.)
I think these two things are givens in brewing. Breaking these rules is asking for trouble and offers no real upside that I can see. If there is an upside, I would challenge any home brewer to prove it to me - definitively.
.............
Aces, joshua actually has the answer to your original question, "how come when we put the wort into the fermenter its ok to shake the shit out of it and get as much air into it as possible," but he hasn't posted it here. joshua! Sober up and give him your answer (It's in one of your posts of the last few weeks.)
BobBrew's and BrickBrewHaus's post above are spot on. Let me make it short for the first time in my life!
1. Avoid aggressively agitating your wort any time it is hot. (There is no downside to doing this).
2. Aerate your wort aggressively, once cooled, before pitching. (There is no downside to doing this unless you are really lazy.)
I think these two things are givens in brewing. Breaking these rules is asking for trouble and offers no real upside that I can see. If there is an upside, I would challenge any home brewer to prove it to me - definitively.
.............
Aces, joshua actually has the answer to your original question, "how come when we put the wort into the fermenter its ok to shake the shit out of it and get as much air into it as possible," but he hasn't posted it here. joshua! Sober up and give him your answer (It's in one of your posts of the last few weeks.)
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
Good Day Guinges, The yeast will soak in to the wort and wake up/come alive and find the Olive oil.
The air on the surface is available for the yeast, but soon as the yeast go to work, the CO2 will blanket the wort, and keep the yeast from getting any more air/oxygen.
When we "shake the shit out of it and get as much air into it as possible" since yeast need a lot of oxygen to make compounds(fatty acids,etc), that they will need to change the sugar into alcohol and grow quickly.
The Olive oil idea is, to add all those compounds to the wort so the yeast don't need to take time/energy doing so themselves. The "pin point drop" of O-oil is not very large, and O-oil is slightly water souble.
I forgot to post that there is a suject of "Aeration" http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=652 and has the start of an Olive-oil discussion at the Bottom.
The air on the surface is available for the yeast, but soon as the yeast go to work, the CO2 will blanket the wort, and keep the yeast from getting any more air/oxygen.
When we "shake the shit out of it and get as much air into it as possible" since yeast need a lot of oxygen to make compounds(fatty acids,etc), that they will need to change the sugar into alcohol and grow quickly.
The Olive oil idea is, to add all those compounds to the wort so the yeast don't need to take time/energy doing so themselves. The "pin point drop" of O-oil is not very large, and O-oil is slightly water souble.
I forgot to post that there is a suject of "Aeration" http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=652 and has the start of an Olive-oil discussion at the Bottom.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
God Day Joshua.
Thanks very much for the information and research. I have some more questions after your post. The dry yeast does seem to go crazy on the surface though, although I confess I haven’t had any completely non-aerated batches yet to observe. Do the dry yeast manufacturers add their own olive oil equivalents? I seem to recall something about that.
Sorry. Your post got me thinking more about this.
Thanks very much for the information and research. I have some more questions after your post. The dry yeast does seem to go crazy on the surface though, although I confess I haven’t had any completely non-aerated batches yet to observe. Do the dry yeast manufacturers add their own olive oil equivalents? I seem to recall something about that.
Sorry. Your post got me thinking more about this.
Guinges
Post #16 made 11 years ago
Guinges, The high price dry yeast do use fatty acids, and Lipids, and DAP in the Packets.
The cheap Muntons, Danstar, and Coopers, need the yeast growth Compounds added.
You are right, dry yeast will take off at the top of the Wort, and make a thick layer of Kruasen.
If you DO try Non-aerated wort be aware the Fermentation will be much longer, making Ale seem like LAGER, And Lager seem like Forever!
The cheap Muntons, Danstar, and Coopers, need the yeast growth Compounds added.
You are right, dry yeast will take off at the top of the Wort, and make a thick layer of Kruasen.
If you DO try Non-aerated wort be aware the Fermentation will be much longer, making Ale seem like LAGER, And Lager seem like Forever!
Last edited by joshua on 05 Jan 2013, 08:20, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
Thanks Joshua for answering my questions.
Have a good weekend
Mark
Have a good weekend
Mark
Guinges
Post #18 made 11 years ago
Somewhere I remember that nutrient and Oxygen starved yeast will die a slow painful death! They give (off flavors) to the beer as they die in retribution for the bad treatment. Of course if you want that taste in your beer along with the extra sweetness that the un-fermented wort will have left that's great.
I now use pure Oxygen with yeast nutrient each time so my yeast are happy and the fermentation is fully completed. That gives me a stable foundation to measure my beers from. In the past I wasn't so fussy and I thought my beer was just fine. But when I tried to make my good beers more repeatable for competitions I found that I was forced to eliminate the variables as much as I could.
I now use pure Oxygen with yeast nutrient each time so my yeast are happy and the fermentation is fully completed. That gives me a stable foundation to measure my beers from. In the past I wasn't so fussy and I thought my beer was just fine. But when I tried to make my good beers more repeatable for competitions I found that I was forced to eliminate the variables as much as I could.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #19 made 11 years ago
Bob, It is early for me. and I used my first found link....Check
http://www.mgriesmeyer.com/doatest/bjcp ... tation.pdf
Start at page 4 Fermentation..Fermentation
Yeast Life Cycle
This long but complete PDF explains the Adaptive Phase, the Attenuative Phase, and the Conditioning Phase.
Have fun on the Cold, January Day, Brrrrr!
http://www.mgriesmeyer.com/doatest/bjcp ... tation.pdf
Start at page 4 Fermentation..Fermentation
Yeast Life Cycle
This long but complete PDF explains the Adaptive Phase, the Attenuative Phase, and the Conditioning Phase.
Have fun on the Cold, January Day, Brrrrr!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #20 made 11 years ago
joshua,
Great read. And a keeper, thanks!
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-2.html
Checking BIABrew,info is keeping me busy between runs to the garage to check my mash temps. Time flys bye when you're having fun!
Great read. And a keeper, thanks!
The quote is what I was thinking of about off tastes from dying yeast!Another situation this helps avoid is autolysis of the yeasts – yeast death and
decomposition. John Palmer's “How to Brew” has an especially colorful description of what this smells
like. You will think something died in your beer, because in fact, something has.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-2.html
Checking BIABrew,info is keeping me busy between runs to the garage to check my mash temps. Time flys bye when you're having fun!
Last edited by BobBrews on 05 Jan 2013, 23:37, edited 2 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #21 made 11 years ago
Bob, Thanks.
The reason for Olive oil is to provide the sterols and unsaturated fatty acids to the yeast and limit the amount of air given to the Wort.
John Palmer says
"Yeast need oxygen to synthesize sterols and unsaturated fatty acids for cell membrane biosynthesis"
In my case, Keeping the "Lacto" from overtaken the the Beer Yeast and making "Sierra Pale Vinegar" from the air in my Kitchen.
The reason for Olive oil is to provide the sterols and unsaturated fatty acids to the yeast and limit the amount of air given to the Wort.
John Palmer says
"Yeast need oxygen to synthesize sterols and unsaturated fatty acids for cell membrane biosynthesis"
In my case, Keeping the "Lacto" from overtaken the the Beer Yeast and making "Sierra Pale Vinegar" from the air in my Kitchen.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #22 made 11 years ago
joshua.
I tried Olive Oil in the past. I didn't seem to see a difference? But who knows. It takes less than a drop and I have trouble with numbers! I read a lot on the Olive Oil technique. Seemed like a good idea!
I tried Olive Oil in the past. I didn't seem to see a difference? But who knows. It takes less than a drop and I have trouble with numbers! I read a lot on the Olive Oil technique. Seemed like a good idea!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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