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Mash hopping

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by BDP
Hi Folks,

Haven't been brewing for a while, and am feeling a serious desire to get a new brew underway. Looking at BCS "Janet's Brown Ale", the note on the all-grain option says to replace 21g of the 60 min bittering hop addition (a 40% reduction) with 28g mash hop addition of the same hops. Whaaaat?! :shock:

This drops the IBU as measured by BIABacus from 55.8 to 42.1. My understanding is that mash hopping does not contribute to bitterness, since the hops are not boiled and therefore the alpha-acids are not isomerized. Is Jamil suggesting that it's better to reduce bitterness and supplement hop flavour with this recipe?

For those of you who have done this recipe, I'd like to hear what approach you took with the hops, and whether or not the end result was pleasing.

Cheers!
BDP

PS: I don't intend to dry hop, as the recipe calls for.

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by joshua
BDP, the only Problem with "Mash Hopping" is the Hops oils do come out at Temperatures around 155F.

Then, stick to the Grains, and are gone when the Bag is pulled.

It may work with 3V brewing, but, not very well for Us.

I like the Bitterness and flavor from First Wort Hopping(FWH).

YMMV
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #3 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Joshua's answer above reflects my memories and understanding of what I have read on mash hopping with one exception. I think it mash hopping would work better with full-volume BIAB than with 3V brewing as there is less chance that the hop oils will stick to the grain. Personally, from what I have read and remember, mash hopping is very wasteful so I can't see any reason it would be recommended in preference to the FWH Josh mentioned.

I'd be contacting the authors, Jamil or John, for an answer on this one BDP :scratch: :think:.

If you do, can you let us know the answer as this site does highly recommend the book.

:peace:
PP
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by BDP
Thanks guys. I did stumble on a couple of the postings that Joshua reference. If I were to attempt something like this, it would be the FWH approach. However, I'm more inclined to KISS and leave the bittering additions as is (i.e. all in at 60min).

Cheers!
:salute:

Post #5 made 11 years ago
by jhough
BDP, If you want to attempt this do FWH. Unfortunately I think you lose some of the bitterness as the max time should be 60 min. I would second going at 60 minutes.
Joe
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Uh Oh! Couple of info problems above :dunno: .

I've written a very full description on FWH'ing somewhere on this forum. I've spent about 20 mins looking for it but have only looked at about a third of my posts that contain 'FWH'. Maybe someone can dig up the proper goods for us?

Just like no-sparge brewing, the definition of FWH'ing has been extremely abused and misunderstood. Somewhere on this forum I have written out the process of converting a normal recipe to a FWH recipe as based on the original concept.

Here (see the PS especially) and here are a few links but I'm hoping I have written better instructions somewhere here on the forum.

:interesting:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Mar 2015, 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
by joshua
PP, trying not to argue, But FWH was a 3v Topic, adding hops to the "1st Runnings".

With BIAB, "1st wort" was defines as the "Sweet Liquor" that happens when the bag is pulled after mash-out.

The time it to go from 1st running until Boil, was considered in the IBU calculations.

Why not consider the Time from Mash-out until Full Boil with BIAB???
Image


Most Alpha Acids Melt and can get into the Wort as low as 153F/67C (See viewtopic.php?f=150&t=2215&p=48127#p32244)

See "Considering First wort hopping" at viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1798 and Lylo's post at #17

JMHO
Last edited by joshua on 29 Mar 2015, 21:57, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #9 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
joshua wrote:PP, trying not to argue...
Yes you are!

:lol:

Okay this thread is talking about Mash Hopping and First Wort Hopping. Just because these hops endure the full boil does not mean that they necessarily will behave anything like a bittering hop. As far as I know, many hop varieties don't, so utilisation tables do not apply to them.

The "Considering First Worth Hopping" thread you have quoted above, including Post #17, deals with exactly this as does the original concept link I gave above.

The only real numbers I have ever seen on FWH are found in the original concept thread. In that, you will find that the flavour and aroma additions moved to FWH'ing do not add to perceived bitterness. Basically they still act as flavour and aroma additions but also have a few other subtle effects.

The problem here is that we have no real data (sensory or actual) on how different hop varieties (especially medium to high AA% hops) act when FWH'ed. The best brewer I know on medium to high alpha American hops treats it as an art, not as maths. In fact, he used FWH'ing as the perfect example of how some forms of hopping do not work to any logic/maths. He treats each hop variety differently.

So, for the moment at least, this is one area where we really have to admit that there is a lot we don't know.

:?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Mar 2015, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.
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