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Thoughts on the importance of stirring during mash.

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by goulaigan
Hey folks, just wondering what the general consensus is on the importance of stirring during the mash.

:scratch:

I've got my first 4 BIABs bottled or consumed now, the 5th is almost done in my fermenter, and 6 and seven planned and ingredients in the mail. Looking at my numbers it would seem that, at least for me, stirring during the mash doesn't really effect much, except for the temp.

Now that being said, I really don't have enough brews done, (and none the same recipe) to really make a valid conclusion on this, so I wondered if anyone else has tried both stirring and not stirring enough times to really get a good idea of the difference.

I brew outdoors on gas in a 60L stock pot and my first 4 were done when it was still snowy or at least chilly outside, so I opted to skip stirring, and my EAW ranged from 80 to 90%. My last 2 brews I stirred as per the general 15-20 minute rule and my EAW was 82% and 90% for each.

The lower EAW brews (lowish 80%) both when stirring and not stirring were higher gravity (1.059 and 1.060 EOB) and so I think they are still pretty good percentages and to be expected?

I am pretty happy with the numbers I have been getting and consider myself lucky that I haven't needed any water adjustments, mill adjustments, bag adjustments etc etc, and I haven't been able to detect any off flavours in any of my brews to date.

The main reason I ask is I find when I stir I have to reheat as I seem to lose quite a bit of heat taking the lid off and when I don't stir I generally only drop at most 1-2 degrees over the entire 90 mins. Also I like to employ KISS as much as possible.

;)

Thoughts?
Last edited by goulaigan on 26 Jun 2014, 00:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 9 years ago
by BobBrews
goulaigan,

Nice post. I feel about the same as you do. At first I didn't stir at all. Then I started to stir once somewhere about mid-mash. Now I stir only for the bigger mashes (large amounts of grain). So I am all over the place? The thing is, for those of us that have very cold weather. Opening up a covered pot loses a lot of heat. In Summer, not so much? So I think that we should judge every brew on it's own merits.

On the other hand, a big heavy fat brew-bag probably should need a stir about mid-mash? The amount of work is little and the reward is probably even less but sometimes we do things just because we feel the need to do them!
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by Rick
By stirring, you are distributing the heat evenly throughout the mash. If you do not stir, your thermometer might be reading a hot spot, or even a cold spot. Why not distribute the heat evenly for the most accurate reading possible?

Think of it this way, stirring makes you lose a few degrees. Those degrees are already lost within the mash, stirring only reveals it. By not stirring, you are putting yourself in a "ignorance is bliss" mind set.

Just my .02, I'm a control freak when it comes to brewing.
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
I honestly don't know the answer to this one goulaigan but it is one thing that I added to the checklist of things to look at if you are finding you have low efficiency into kettle. For many brewers, stirring has corrected their problem but who knows if at the same time, they did not increase their mash time or do something else?

From a common sense point of view, stirring will do nothing but help you. Think about washing your clothes. Would just letting them sit in hot water be better at removing the dirt than moving them around and maintaining that hot temperature?

Obviously, no.

It is good to see your post below is nicely thought out. I can actually only pick one hole in it. You wrote..." I find when I stir I have to reheat as I seem to lose quite a bit of heat taking the lid off and when I don't stir I generally only drop at most 1-2 degrees over the entire 90 mins."

That statement is a bit like saying is the fridge light still on when I close the fridge door :P.

You are not losing a significant amount of heat when you lift the lid and stir the mash. You are just making the heat in the mash even. (The variations in temperature of an unstirred mash are actually very wild and who knows if this is a positive or a negative? I don't.)

My preference is to be aware of what is happening in the mash and this means getting accurate mash temps a few times at least during the mash.

:peace:
PP
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by goulaigan
Both fair answers and sort of what I expected to hear, thanks Rick and PP. I do stir very thoroughly when I mash in, and I stir constantly during raising temp to mash out. When I take temps, I use a digital probe which I stir around constantly while watching the temp(although it only measures the top 15 cm or so), and an infrared pen as a backup and to check against the other.

As far as the whole light on in the fridge comparison, I see where you are coming from, although when I do not stir and take the temp after the mash, I do stir at that point and have only lost up to 2 degrees, so unless the temp went down and came back up during the 90 mins, I think its still a fairly accurate assumption (at least of the average temp of my mash). I can also see your point about the clothes washing scenario, (man PP you must have some really clean clothes :think: ;) ;) )

Now as far as hot spots go I'm sure they exist in my mash, but the question is do they really affect efficiency? or more importantly flavour? and is there anyone who has actually done the same recipe a few times both stirring and not stirring?
Thanks again fellas for the quick and insightful replies
:thumbs:

Edit: Thanks BB as well, somehow I missed your post, but you nailed it, is this one of those things we do just because someone said you should? For me, if it means a 1 or 2 % boost in EAW or a change in flavour so slight only the most ninja of BJCP yogi masters could discern it, it isn't worth the effort of firing the propane back up, risking overheating, etc., And agreed about the bigger beers, as it probably would have more effect with more grain in less water...
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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by HbgBill
I believe all of the breweries I have toured stir their mash with big finger blades that extend down into the mash. They have excellent temperature control, using mostly steam jackets. I'm sure it's all about efficiency. I don't have that luxury :(
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Thoughts on the importance of stirring during mash.

Post #7 made 9 years ago
by Contrarian
I never take the lid of my mash until it's done and then give it a good stir and then depending on how I'm feeling do a proper mash out or just let the bag drain while ramping up to boil.

It might sound lazy but with 2 kids under 3 I don't have time to helicopter parent my brew!

As PP said, if you have concerns about efficiency then it is worth considering. If you're happy with what you are getting then I wouldn't stress it.

I have a mate with a 3 V system and he has measured temperature variances of 5 degrees or more in his mash tun with no discernible impact on the quality of his beer which is very good.

I also believe that the thermal mass of full volume mashing will hold a relatively constant temp in most conditions, or at least close enough for good conversion which is the main point of it all!

I am without a doubt on the lazy end of home brewers but I think some home brewers are flat out delusional in their beliefs regarding the level of control they can have over elements of the brewing process and the impact this has on the quality if the end product.

So to bring a relatively tangential post back on topic stirring might get you a few extra efficiency points and may result in a small temperature loss but if you identify the quality improvement on the final product I would be surprised to day the least!

Post #8 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Contrarian wrote:I am without a doubt on the lazy end of home brewers but I think some home brewers are flat out delusional in their beliefs regarding the level of control they can have over elements of the brewing process and the impact this has on the quality if the end product.
That is a beautiful sentence.

+1000 for that one :salute:,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Sep 2014, 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by goulaigan
Agreed Contrarian, these were my thoughts as well when I posted the original question. I also have 2 young kids and soon to be 3 in another week or so, adds a whole other angle to brewing doesn't it LOL.
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by nosco
I only stir once my mash temp goes a deg or 2 under my desired temp and put a bit of heat on which i try to limit to about half way. But once I start stiring the temp drops a few more degrees, even 4 or 5 all up (in winter, haven't brewed in summer yet) If I didnt stir I could say " over a 90 min mash my temps only dropped 2 degrees. Im not experienced enough to say if it affect my beer and my system and process definitely needs improving but just saying.
"Gentleman, when I first started Reynholm Industries, I had just two things in my possession: a simple dream, and six million pounds.
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Thoughts on the importance of stirring during mash.

Post #11 made 9 years ago
by Contrarian
goulaigan wrote:Agreed Contrarian, these were my thoughts as well when I posted the original question. I also have 2 young kids and soon to be 3 in another week or so, adds a whole other angle to brewing doesn't it LOL.
Good luck with the third mate! Hope it all goes well.

Brewing with kids has often meant that a mash went for 3+ hours or that the boil has finished late at night as my wife isn't very comfortable about toddlers being around gas burners an large pots of hot sticky liquid. Even milling grain can be tricky as my son loves eating it out of the hopper!

Maybe when they're older and entertaining themselves I will be able to focus on being able to replicate brews more closely but in my experience it is a very forgiving process an I have been happy with 90% or more of the beers I have brewed. I also think the more time and money people have invested in their breweries the more invested they are in the importance of what that kit does.

I'm more interested in simplicity, a quick clean up and time to have fun with the kids in the long periods of nothing between the short but intense periods of activity.
Last edited by Contrarian on 12 Sep 2014, 04:55, edited 1 time in total.

Post #12 made 9 years ago
by goulaigan
Thanks Contrarion!

I am with you on simplicity, the less complicated the equipment and setup, the less complicated the cleaning regime is. I have no taps or valves to worry about, no fittings that could leak etc., just an auto siphon to clean and a giant pot. I prefer to siphon anywy, I can leave exactly the amount of trub behind that I want.

I think when my 3 and 4 year olds discovered how tasty grain is my efficiency number actually dropped a few percent because they actually manage to eat that much while they are 'helping' me mill the grain haha. The older one also loves to make my hop additions for me, but I am very careful with him near the kettle. We live out in the country so they are used to bonfires etc., but he isn't allowed anywhere near the kettle unless I am right beside him.
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
by tim_n
I stir at the start to knock out the clumps

I stir in the middle because I want to check the temperature before firing up the element and bringing it back up to temp.

If the mash is supposed to be at 66'C, I fire back up at 64'C which is about 45min in. I'm only using a sleeping bag and a duvet cover to keep the heat in - and they're often cold when I put them on.
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