recipe check ... and a couple of questions

Post #1 made 10 years ago
Hi Folks,

Converting Graham Wheeler's Guinness Extra Stout recipe, and had a couple of questions. I've attached the BIABacus:
BIABacus PR1.3T - Dry Stout - Guinness Extra Stout - Batch A0.xls
The original recipe lists a color of 203 EBC, but the BIABacus calculates it as 75.8 (substituted = 68). This seems like too large a disparity to go unchecked (203 vs. 68). After searching online for a color scale, it would appear that 60+ EBC is the darkest end of the scale, so I'm guessing that the recipe color of 203 is a typo?

The recipe lists the IBU (EBU) as 45, but the BIABacus calculates it as 50.6 (Tinseth). I'm not 100% sure, but I think Wheeler's recipes specify IBU using the Tinseth formula. If this is indeed the case, I would have expected a value closer to 45 because this is what the BIABacus calculates. He specifies the hops be added at 90 minutes, but I changed this to 60 minutes in the substituted section. The resulting substituted hop bill seemed too high to me, so I manually overrode it to 45 in the second parameter in section D, to match the original recipe.

Answers and feedback would be much valued.

Thanks
BDP

PS: I plan to mash the base malt and 'steeping grains' all together, a la BobBrews :salute:
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Last edited by BDP on 12 Sep 2014, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 10 years ago
HI Bdp,

How did this turn out. Only saw this post today and noticed a few things. Guinness Extra Stout is much stronger than the recipe posted. Usually 6% - 7.5%. The hop bill is better imo using ekg. IBU shoudl be around the 40 mark. The colour seems good as well imo

Post #3 made 10 years ago
Glad you bumped this Dave. Have no idea how BDP's question slipped by us all :sad:. I was probably drunk but what's everyone else's excuse? :)

I'll PM Yeasty and mally, BDP as they will be able to get most or all of your questions sorted. If there is anything left, I'll try and tidy up. Apologies that all our answers may be too late for you.

:dunno:
PP
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
BDP, Sorry if you think that we have ignored you, we haven't I promise but occasionally some post slip by and get missed.

Anyway have a look at this thread Here. I'll have a look at your file later tonight once I've found the book :idiot:

:thumbs:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 25 Sep 2014, 02:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
Yep, just let us know BDP if we can still be of help, or whether we are all too late :sad:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
Hi BDP

The file looks good apart from section D. The VAW figure for a GW 23L brew is 21.11. Also delete the override figure of 45 IBU's and go with the Biabacus. I'd also go with 90 min. The amount of hops may look high but your AA% is half of the original recipe. So the amount needed will be around twice as much. Don't worry about the difference you have from the original recipe IBU. IBU calculations vary, the discrepancy is probably down to differences in utilisation factors used.

Sorry I don't worry about colour and I'm a bit lacking on that subject so I can't really comment. Mally might be able to help :pray:

:salute:

Yesaty

PS You have over ridden the evaporation default to 5L is this based on past brews ? if so how many ?
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
Hi DaveDoran / PistolPatch / Yeasty / Mally,

Actually I haven't brewed this yet, so thanks for the timely responses. I need to check my auto-notification settings ... been checking back regularly though so the anticipation has been building :)

I was also confused by the style classification of this stout, but since it appears to me more like a dry stout (which is really what I'm after), I'm going to stick with the recipe.

Based on Yeasty's feedback, I've made 3 changes to section D:
* VAW = 21.11
* Deleted desired IBU
* 90 min hop additions

I had set it to 60 min originally since I seem to recall that the extra 30 min boil only provides fractionally more utilization and might impart 'bad' flavours. But then who am I to argue with GW? :)

My custom 5L evaporation rate has stood me well for the past 3 brews. However, I do see some variation from brew to brew.

Thanks once again,
BDP

Post #8 made 10 years ago
Hi Yeasty,

Just finished reading your post #1 in the thread you referenced earlier:

VFO = VAW
19L = 18.27
23L = 22.11
25L = 24.04

So in section D should I set VAW to 21.11 or 22.11 ?

Thanks
BDP

Post #9 made 10 years ago
If you are following GW's 23L weights, then enter 22.11 in Section D "VAW".

Out of interest; where did you get 21.11 from?

:luck:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #11 made 10 years ago
Ah.. I see now :salute:

I guess that is a typo, unless there has been a change since?

Yeasty?? :scratch:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #12 made 10 years ago
Sorry guys the 21.11 is a typo.. :blush:

I've just got back from Dublin by the way and I can say I'm a bit sick of "Stout".. :lol: :drink: :drink: :drink: :party: :party: :party: :drink:

:sneak:

Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #13 made 10 years ago
My recent Oatmeal Stout showed an EBC of 154 and an SRM of 78. That is with the 19 L recipe. However, when BIABacus recalculated for my 11.4 L volume, the EBC dropped to 120 and the SRM to 61. I don't understand BIABacus enough to understand why the change.. but, that's what I see in Sect C.

The original beer from the brewer shows an SRM of 65 do, I'm VERY close.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #14 made 10 years ago
Howdy Bill,

Colour formulas are a little weird to understand. On the left hand side of your Section C, you would have had the weights of grain used in the original recipe you were copying but the original brewer would not have had the same kettle efficiency as you. Your numbers above tell me theat the original brewer's system was less kettle efficient than you. In other words, you needed to use less grain than the original brewer per gallon or litre of ambient wort.

The colour formulas assume that using less grain per volume of ambient wort will mean less colour. Some software juggles things around so that the colour stays the same but this is a very dangerous practice as it changes the ratios of malts used and therefore destroys the recipe integrity. That practice also forgets that the main purpose of nearly all malts is flavour not colour. Colour is far less important.

As I said, it's a little hard to understand. Also, colour formulas are not super accurate so don't place too much stock in them.

;)
PP
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Post #15 made 10 years ago
Thanks PP. Yes, the only information I have on the beer is from the website of Firestone Walker in S.Calif. The only added information I have is a little personal interaction with the head brewer. He gave me SOME information.. but, not much. Just enough to modify the original grain bill I asked him to critique. I have no idea how in/efficient these larger craft breweries are. :) I wasn't concerned in this case. For all intents and purposes.. I don't think this beer could look any blacker.. even at 16 or so points lower. Now, if this were the case with an APA.. it might cause an issue.

Speaking of which.. Efficiency. In a different thread, I was concerned that the amount of grist in the BIAB recipe vs the original recipe was lower. I believe you mentioned that BIABacus amounts point to a more efficient process.. so used less grain. OK. BUT, I did end up with a much lower OG and FG than I expected. The OG was 10 points lower than i had hoped for. Yes, I know that can relate to the above discussion.. BUT, my question might be formulated as.. "What if.. I really needed to have that additional grain to bring my SG up those 10 points".. Is there a way to account for that in the next brew? OR, should I brew it one more time and see how the numbers compare? If they still follow 'x' points low.. What is the process to improve my expectations on future brews?

In reality, this is my second batch of this beer. Both were low.. however, on the 1st batch, my BIAB record keeping stunk. I just know it came out lower SG than i expected..

Thanks all for continued help.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #17 made 10 years ago
Hi,

Brewed the stout recipe today. I was lazy and skipped most readings, but otherwise the brew day went smoothly. I ground the roasted barley in my coffee grinder and added it immediately after the other grains were doughed in. Checked the pH 10 minutes later and it read 5.3, so good thing I didn't add any lactic acid prior to taking a reading. I'm amazed at the effect of the roasted grain on the pH.

I ended up about 1.5L shy of the desired VIF. I was amused, because I'd removed 1.3L from TWN after adjusting the "Adjust Volume Loss from Lauter to" in Section X to 0.4. However, because I didn't take enough readings, this cold also have been due to a higher than anticipated evaporation rate, or more than expected water absorption by the flaked barley, etc.

Still got another OG reading less than expected, but as posted previously, I now strongly suspect the coarseness of the grind. Will have to invest in my own mill, as my supplier does not allow patrons to adjust the grind on their mill.

Also was my first time using Wyeast liquid yeast. They say they're good for pitching into 1.060 OG, and mine was 1.037, so hopefully won't be under pitched.

Gravity sample tasted good :drink:

Cheers,
BDP

Some Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading

Post #18 made 10 years ago
BDP wrote:Still got another OG reading less than expected, but as posted previously, I now strongly suspect the coarseness of the grind. Will have to invest in my own mill, as my supplier does not allow patrons to adjust the grind on their mill.
It won't be coarseness of the grind BDP so don't waste money and time on a mill at this point.

Even if you have come across this list on the forum before, double-check it because I have just added three new points...

[center]Some Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading[/center]
1. Reading has not been confirmed. (This table shows the resulting measurements of 30 brewers mailed identical ingredients and then asked to brew the same recipe.)
2. Grain bill incorrectly weighed.
3. Thermometer not calibrated at mash temperatures. (This post shows how unreliable a single thermometer is.)
4. Hydrometer not calibrated at original gravity* (or the brewer is taking gravity samples that are too hot to temperature correct.)
5. Bag is too small and restricts liquor flow. Your BIAB bag needs to fully line the kettle.
6. Bag porosity is too small. 35 vertical and horizontal threads per cm works well.
7. pH of mash has not been adjusted.
8. Estimated mash efficiency did not reflect the gravity of the brew. (A high gravity beer will have a lower mash efficiency than a low gravity beer. NOTE CAREFULLY: This point can be ignored if you are using the BIABacus as the BIABacus adjusts for gravity.)
9. The brewer is measuring 'efficiency into fermenter' rather than 'efficiency into the kettle.' The first figure is often far lower than the second.
10. The grain used has lower extract potential or higher moisture content than the specifications being used for the calculations.
11. Mash time is too short. In full-volume BIAB, mashing and sparging occurs simultaneously. Pulling your bag at 60 minutes, cuts this process too short. Allow at least 90 minutes and preferably follow with a mash-out.
12. The grain is not being agitated during the mash. Time, temperature and agitation are how we 'wash' things. Agitating the grain and checking the temperature several times throughout the 90 minute mash has no downside and should be done so as you can determine the cost of not agitating.
13. Grain crush is too fine or too coarse. Ensure most grains are broken or squashed, not pulverised. See here.
14. You are incorrectly measuring volumes. Use your kitchen or bathroom scales and sections B and U of the BIABacus to check your volumes by weight. (One litre of water at ambient temperature = one kilogram.)
15. If buying your grains pre-crushed, age can affect efficiency. For example, crushed grain, stored in a humid environment will become heavier as it sucks in water. The grain becomes heavier but the sugar content, by weight, reduces.

* Check your hydrometer at 1.050 by dissolving 130 grams of table sugar in about 0.9 litres of hot water. Let that cool to 15 C or 20 C depending on your hydrometer and then top it up to 1 litre and take your measure.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Oct 2014, 19:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #19 made 10 years ago
Thanks for the updated checklist, PistolPatch. I really need to check 4 and 14. I know there was a handy posting or two floating around, that covered hydrometer calibration. Will have to locate it.

I was wondering about bullet #15, but I think I understand now why you included it here. It affects 'measured' efficiency, but not the amount of sugars extracted, right?

BDP
:peace:

Post #21 made 10 years ago
Thanks heaps BDP for digging up the old hydrometer check post. I just edited my post above with a bit of that post :salute:.

A for the digital stuff, remember never trust a single instrument :nup:. (Or a single reading :)).
BDP wrote:I was wondering about bullet #15, but I think I understand now why you included it here. It affects 'measured' efficiency, but not the amount of sugars extracted, right
I probably need to right bullet 15 better. At present it reads...
15. If buying your grains pre-crushed, age can affect efficiency. For example, crushed grain, stored in a humid environment will become heavier as it sucks in water. The grain becomes heavier but the sugar content, by weight, reduces.
Your question here has just got me thinking a little deeper but before we go there, let me try and explain this a little better...

Imagine if I had a kilogram of perfectly dry sugar and sold it to you. You would have purchased a kilogram of pure sugar and been able to sweeten God knows how many cups of tea. But if I spilt 250 grams, (1/4 kg), of water into that 1 kg of dry sugar and then sold you by weight 1.25 kg of 'sugar', you would still only be able to sweeten the same amount of cups of tea.

I have no idea if that helps BDP :dunno:. If not, just let me know and I'll post something else I was thinking.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Oct 2014, 19:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #22 made 10 years ago
Hi PistolPatch,

Re-reading your response to bullet #15, I think I understand now. There is a subtle yet important difference between buying pre-crushed grains by weight, versus buying uncrushed grain by weight and then having it milled at the store. I believe you are referring to the former situation, whereas I was transposing this into the latter (which is how I purchase my grain bill, and then brew with it a few days later). And yes your explanation does make sense, thanks. :)

Cheers
BDP

Post #23 made 10 years ago
BDP wrote:...I think I understand now. There is a subtle yet important difference between buying pre-crushed grains by weight, versus buying uncrushed grain by weight and then having it milled at the store. ...
I see where you are coming from but am finding it hard to get the right analogy :scratch: :think: :scratch:...

Time is a factor but not in the way I think you are imagining.

Uncrushed grain is less susceptible to moisture absorption. Imagine you had a kilogram of uncrushed grain and sprayed it with 100 mls of water. Most would drip off and in a hot dry climate, you would have actually had no effect on the grain (even weight-wise).

Now imagine you sprayed 1 kilogram of crushed grain with 100mls of water. It will be absorbed immediately so it will have instantaneously jumped to 1.1kg by weight and take a long time to dry out (get back to 1kg). And, God knows what affect the contact with that moisture on the insides of the grain has chemically?

Hard stuff BDP but does the above give any better understanding?

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Oct 2014, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #24 made 10 years ago
BDP - Maybe another way of explaining it is;

If your grains absorb moisture whilst "in storage" (most dry products will absorb moisture to some degree (see Hygroscopic )).
When you come to weigh out the grains for your brew, you will put say 1Kg on the scale, but this 1Kg contains a little bit of moisture that was not present originally. Therefore, you may actually be only adding say 990g of the original weight.

This becomes more of a problem with bulk storage, high humidity, etc.

It's one reason why I always aliquot out my bulk grains as soon as I get them. I also use a vacuum sealer too.
Although my scales may not give me accuracy (exactly 1kg) they will give me precision (all about the same weight).
Last edited by mally on 29 Oct 2014, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #25 made 10 years ago
Sorry to spring another question on you all, but this is also related to the current recipe (3 days into fermentation). Recipe instructions: "Ferment at 18C. Slowly raise the temperature during the final third of fermentation by 3C to reduce diacetyl levels in the beer."

Now, the ferment is 3 days in, and the kreausen has all but disappeared already, so I imagine that primary fermentation is mostly complete. I had planned to raise the temperature to 21C on day 12 (of 14 days in the primary fermenter). But now I'm wondering if I should raise it now already? I think the instructions are not specific enough? What is commonly done for diacetyl rest for ale?

Thanks
BDP
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