Yeast starters & re-using yeast - Help

Post #1 made 15 years ago
Hey everyone

My LHBS is...well..lets just say... crap!
So i order in my dried yeast, but this gets quite annoying as its $4 per packet + $4 postage. I could order in bulk, but i would like to be a little more self sufficient.

I also want to move to liquid yeast as i have read that its a really good way to improve my beers.

So.. what im asking is, how do other members use their yeast? Create a starter from the Liquid yeast? Then Re-use the yeast cake after fermentation is finished?

I have also read that you can split the liquid yeast and create 2 or more starters from it??

I may be way off with my assumptions here, but if someone could post the following for me in 'dummies speak' it would be much appreciated

1. How to create a starter/multiple starters from one 'smack pack'
2. How to re-use the yeast from the yeast cake

Thanks in advance everyone :)

RL
"I like beer. On occasion, I will even drink beer to celebrate a major event such as the fall of Communism or the fact that the refrigerator is still working.”Dave Berry

Post #2 made 15 years ago
Hey RL, I re-use yeast from the cake. I also use a stainless conical fermenter, which makes collecting yeast very easy.

When I was using a pail style fermenter, I would sanitise a glass jar and lid, scoop out 1/2 a jar of cake, top with cold boiled water and store in the fridge until needed. When I go to use it, I just pour off the water, pour in some wort, shake and add to the fermenter.

This is the simplest method of using yeast that I know of. I've had it last 3 months without ill effects.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #3 made 15 years ago
I got a lot of my yeast from other brewers I know, and grow it each time I brew in a yeast stirrer I made. Then I take a portion of this and put it into a plastic test tube with a lid, and put it in the fridge to store. I then brew up several beers of progressively greater SG that use the same yeast, so I have nice big yeast populations to start from.

I have about 10 yeasts that I use regularly and they have been good, some are in their 8th generation, and going strong.

Liquid yeasts give more variety than is available with dry, but you will need to make up starters for your first brew you make with them, and then use a cup or so of the yeast cake on the beers that follow.

I up it to 2 cups of slurry for lagers or big ales.

Matt

Post #4 made 15 years ago
That's a good move RL, you shouldn't be disappointed with liquids. What sort of beer do you brew most of? Have to say ales a usually more amenable with easier handling, lagers are often slow to breed, need large volumes of starter, bit fiddly etc. But if you would prefer to use a lager strain first, then reusing slurry is certainly an attractive way to go.

I'd pick a run of the mill strain, what you could do is smack it if need be, then pitch most of it into a single batch and use a dribble to inoculate a 100ml starter in a good strong glass tallie. Let the batch ferment as usual (you'll reuse the slurry) but with the starter basically once it has obviously started I'll double its volume every day or two with boiled 1.040 wort, when it reaches 400ml, after that grows right out and when it is done (the wort clears), tip off most of the wort and keep the trub, it should have much of the yeast. Then restart the process with fresh boiled wort, grow it out to finality, then park it in the fridge after it is well and truly grown out. This is your spare, most of the time you'll re- use slurry. The spare can be re- activated after even a few months, let it gently come back up to room temp, pour off the now nicely clear beer and restart the process with fresh boiled wort, step it through a few times and you'll have loads of it in no time. You can store post- ferment slurry the same way.

Because you're often dealing with small amounts of 'seed' yeast, sanitation is critical. If your processes are iffy, just don't bother- even a sneezed- on funnel or spoon can wreck everything and I'd recommend as little coming into contact with the near- sterile wort as possible- I don't even use a funnel, just pour directly from one bottle to the other. Boiled wort should be kept sealed after cooking, preferably use a single smaller container for a wort addition as opening and closing a big container of near- sterile wort may well infect it. So a handful of strong old crown- top stubbies and tallies would be OK, even better to use laboratory glassware which will handle repeated boiling and cooling (i.e. borosilicate/ pyrex) and have a decent closure (lid).

Another option is top cropping, but not all strains are able to be top cropped, plus with ales to hit the good day 3 or 4 krausen all the time you need to brew around twice a week. It is by far the easiest method and one of the quickest to get going when inoculating a new batch though, but takes some organisation to be able to do it all the time. Double batches and no- chill will make this a distinct possibility though.

Mr Malty has some tools for working out amounts, to be honest I don't use them but it comes highly regarded and a good resource particularly if you're uncertain.

Dang- that was another essay... sorry... :oops:
Last edited by Ralph on 27 May 2010, 18:38, edited 10 times in total.
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Post #5 made 15 years ago
hashie wrote:When I was using a pail style fermenter, I would sanitise a glass jar and lid, scoop out 1/2 a jar of cake, top with cold boiled water and store in the fridge until needed. When I go to use it, I just pour off the water, pour in some wort, shake and add to the fermenter.

This is the simplest method of using yeast that I know of. I've had it last 3 months without ill effects.
I agree with hashie as to harvesting the yeast cake being the best way of re-using yeast.

I also suggest you use recipes that can be brewed with US-56 which I wrote about in another thread of yours tonight. This yeast will let you brew a wide range of beers so you don't have to worry about using it up quickly. I actually brewed for over a year without buying yeast just by doing the following...

1. Do your first brew with a packet of US-56 - preferably a light-coloured ale.

2. Bottle or keg your brew from the fermenter as normal.

3. Have 2lts of pre-boiled and cooled water ready. After bottling or kegging from your fermenter, open the lid and put the 2 lts of sterile water in the fermenter. Put the lid back on and swirl it around a heap.

4. Now, via your fermenter tap, fill three 750 ml PET bottles, 1/2th full of the slurry.

5. Put them in your fridge.

6. A day later, have 2lts of pre-boiled and chilled water ready. Drain the clear part off the top of each of the 3 PET bottles and top up with the chilled, boiled water.

7. Two days later, have 2lts of pre-boiled and chilled water ready. Drain the clear part off the top of each of the 3 PET bottles and top up with the chilled, boiled water.

By the way, I have found that 6 and 7 above are optional if you are going to be using the yeast again within say a few weeks.

The above gives you enough yeast to do another three brews. In other words, you will always have more than enough. Try to use the slurry though on beers of equivalent or darker colour.

What is very important though...

Before adding the PET bottle yeast to another brew you should...

a) Open the cap and smell the PET bottle. If it smells bad then don't even think twice about adding it. Use the emergency spare dried yeast that I hope you will have bought and kept for emergencies :) or try another of your three bottles.

b) There will be very clear liquid above the yeast and trub in your PET bottles. Pour a bit of this into a glass and taste it. It should taste like watery beer. If it tastes bad then ditch it and use your emergency dried yeast pack or try another of your three bottles.

The above two things are the critical factors. Your nose and tongue will tell you if there is a problem. It should be obvious.

....

Once you are certain that the yeast in your PET bottle is sound, then drain off most of the clear liquid. Let the bottle sit at room temp whilst you are mashing in. At the beginning of the boil, get a cup of wort and cool it to room temperature by throwing it in the freezer for a bit. Once cooled add about a third of the cup to the PET bottle and shake it. Release the pressure after doing so. Do this occasionally for the first half of the boil. Then add the rest of the cup of wort (which you will have had covered in plastic wrap of course!) Give the occasional shake and release until you are ready to pitch - assuming you are chilling.

Hope this helps you RL ;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 May 2010, 22:33, edited 12 times in total.
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Post #6 made 15 years ago
Have a look at this. Its a great pictorial for washing yeast.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast- ... ted-41768/

Another method to save yeast...
Jamil Z and John Palmer did a podcast on creating a yeast library. Much of the podcast they talk about taking some yeast from a starter that was created with a new vial or smack pack of yeast and adding some glycerin/water solution to a portion of it, then storing it in a freezer. I guess the glycerin has a very low freezing temp. This keeps the yeast from becoming damaged in the process. Its a fairly easy way to keep your yeast. I've used 10 dram brown vials. I prefer this method to yeast washing, but you could also combine the processes. I've only used it once for a Belgian strain.
Here is the link for the podcast:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/612

To be honest though unless I need a very specialized strain I've been using dry yeast (Fermentis) for most of my brews lately. I've compared beer of the same recipe, but not the same batch. I don't know there is much of a difference to my palette. Some will swear by liquid strains and I don't have a problem with them, but using dry yeast is easier. Making a starter for a vial or smack pack isn't rocket science, but I can pour the yeast directly into the fermenter if I choose to do so. My dry yeast is only about $3 per packet and I don't pay shipping either.
Joe

Post #7 made 15 years ago
Another method you can use with hard to get yeasts (such as Wyeast 1469) is to bottle off a few 'turbid' bottles at the end of your bottling or kegging session, prime them as normal and just stash them away. They can then be recultured in the same way as Coopers commercial beer yeasts from the bottle. I guess as the beer ages there is less viable yeast in there - I have a batch which is about 9 months old now and I'm going to test it out in the next couple of weeks.

In the UK book Brew your own British Real Ale by Graham Wheeler he says he actually does an entire brew and stashes it for yeast farming purposes. I did that by using a plain beer kit (a $10 Coopers Lager can) and did the brew up to 15 litres and pitched with 1469, bottled straight out of primary into heavy glass. The beer itself is actually quite drinkable - I tried one the other week out of pure morbid interest :lol:
That's the whole point, if the beer tastes good then any live yeast in there is good as well. And you get to drink the beer so no wastage ;)

Post #8 made 15 years ago
This is what I do;

1. Pour liquid yeast out of the packet and into a 500ml starter. (ie: 500ml cooled boiled water and 50g of LDME)

2. Sit that for 48+hrs until the krausen begins to subside

3. Shake the vessel to rouse the yeast cake, then pour into sanitized urine sample jars. Anywhere from 4 to 10, depending on how much I think im going to be using that yeast. I buy the jars at the pharmacy for .80 cents each

4. Label the jars with the yeast strain and the date and then stack them up at the back of the fridge

5. Pitch the rest of the starter into my wort.

Then the next time I want to brew using that same yeast again, I pull out 1 or 2 of the jars out of the fridge (if they're getting old I use 2), pour it into a 500ml starter, give it at least 48 hours to cultivate, then pitch!

I just pitched a yeast that had been sitting in my fridge for about 18 months and it's bubbling away strong right now! Now I dont know if this is a perfect method or not, but it works for me.

Cheers.

Post #9 made 15 years ago
Hi guys can you re-use the yeast cake if you have put gelatine finings into the fermenter?
If so what is the method? Is it the same as stated by PP above?
Cheers Brad ;)
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Post #10 made 15 years ago
Wiz, yes, as above and yes. Gelatine doesn't interfere with yeast cake re- use at all, the concentration is very low and just enough to get particulates to flocculate and not set like jelly.
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Post #11 made 15 years ago
Thanks for the great feedback guys!

I did your process pat, but with one drama..... one of the bottles was too close to the air vent in the fridge and it partially froze.... i have defrosted it and now im waiting for it to settle so i can change the water...... will it still be ok or did i murder it?
"I like beer. On occasion, I will even drink beer to celebrate a major event such as the fall of Communism or the fact that the refrigerator is still working.”Dave Berry

Post #12 made 15 years ago
Sorry about the slow reply RL. I'm still trying to catch up on reading/listening to the posts/links above plus several others.* I imagine your slurry/liquid would have frozen from the top downwards so all should be fine as the yeast would have settled towards the bottom.

You can actually freeze yeast under certain conditions but I can't remember which sorry :).

One limiting factor of the method I outlined above is that the slurry will go off at some stage. This could be anywhere from a month to say 9 months depending on your hygiene standards plus a luck.

Most of my main beers I will do with US-56 but it is annoying to have to buy a whole new yeast pack for the occasional beers I brew that require something different.

This got me thinking...

So now I am going to write to your other thread about sending beers on a regular basis to other brewers who live within a reasonable postal distance.

Good on ya RL,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Jun 2010, 20:44, edited 10 times in total.
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Post #13 made 15 years ago
PistolPatch wrote: You can actually freeze yeast under certain conditions but I can't remember which sorry :).

Check out this podcast its long, but worth a listen if you paln to freeze yeast. Jamil Z has been working with Chris White of White Labs yeast on a yeast book. SO I'd imagine he has access to quite a bit of reseach/methods we don't.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/612" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically you use a mixture of water and food grade glycerine (has a few other name also). I think the ratio was 70% glycerine to 30% water. The glycerine has a lower freezing temp. So this will allow the solution the yeast is in to get very cold with out actually causing ice crystal and shredding the yeast cell walls. I have only used this method once, but I like it. Its fairly easy and you save a much samller quantity of yeast as opposed to washing. I think I used 10 dram brown vials.
Last edited by bigjoe on 21 Jun 2010, 23:23, edited 10 times in total.
Joe

Post #14 made 15 years ago
Specimen bottles do work quite well, but it's important to fill them to the top and then double seal them with electrical tape or similar, as I don't think they seal as well as test tubes.
Image
Last edited by Beachbum on 22 Jun 2010, 08:03, edited 10 times in total.

Post #15 made 14 years ago
Hi All sorry about dragging up an old post but.

I've currently got some lagers in the fridge which i'll be putting across to secondary next week and was hoping to re-use the yeast with the method Pistol Patch mentions. I'm a bit of an expert at this approach as i've done it once before :lol: but that was with an ale and not a lager.

Am i right in thinking that the approach is the same in the way I collect the yeast but when im ready to do the next batch all i need do is use one of the bottles that i have collected to build up my starter or is the fact that its a lager mean I would be better off with fresh yeast. Sorry if its a bit of a basic question but there's too much information out there about the do's and dont's of lager yeast.

Cheers

Jonesy

Post #16 made 14 years ago
Jonesy,should be OK to do so. Remember that liquid lager yeast often needs a much greater volume of yeast starter though, so don't cut any corners and prepare it well in advance. Some brewers will actually do a kit lager with their desired strain just to get the slurry and toss the fermented beer, so the whole kit is just one great big starter.
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Post #17 made 14 years ago
Oldish post but different method.
I smack a pack and when swollen up fill 3X30ml vials and stick them in the fridge. Remaining 30 ml straight into starter up to @ 1.5 L. This way get 4 goes out of 1 pack with virgin yeast each time. Easy to work out starter size from wyeast as 30 ml is the size/# of yeast cells as their propagator packs.

sean
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