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First BIAB...failure?

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
I brewed my first BIAB yesterday and did so on short notice so I must preface it by saying I didn't have a whole lot of BIAB information. I brewed with my buddy, he did a milk stout and I a hopped up IPA. We used Beersmith to input my recipe I got out of Zymurgy. This was both our first time trying this method moving straight from extract. BIAB seems easy to do on paper, but I ran into some problems during my brewing. 1: temps were off from start to finish. We entered weight, grain temp...etc to reach a strike water temp of 164ºF to mash in at 152ºF. I ended up only losing 3ºF total. (Oh, I am using a 10 gallon SS pot. I had 12.5 lbs of grains, 11oz of hops, brewing a 5 gallon batch. We mashed in 8 gallons of water because we didn't think the 9 gallons + 12.5 lbs of grain would fit into my pot. We were just about to the brim of the pot with the 8 gallons and 12.5 lbs of grain.) 2: I was hot right off the bat with my mash and trying to cool down the pot was tough and took quite a bit of time to get it down to 152ºF...and then I sailed right past it. 3: re-heated the mash (I have a false bottom in my pot) and shot right past the temp again...grrr!!! We were using 3 different thermometers and all 3 had different readings. I eventually said I just need to use one thermometer and stick with it from start to finish. 4: I did a 90 minute mash instead of the 60 the recipe called from b/c of the messed up temps right off the start. 5: 60 minute boil with mostly late hop additions. 6: At the end of it all, I believe I hit my gravity (I'm not the best when it comes to reading my hydrometer). 6: Racked to primary and pitched yeast at about 68-70ºF. NOW the biggest problem I am facing - I have 1 full gallon of trub sitting on the bottom of my primary. Where in the world did it all come from ???? I looked at the bag and there is not obvious hole where the grains could have fallen out. I used a hop spider for all of my hops and there is no hole in it either. I can't say I am excited about doing another BIAB if this is what I am to expect - any help, ideas, suggestions would be much appreciated. Cheers!
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Welcome to the forum P,

Don't be stressed about your first AG, you did a good job, also you used a hop spider :) good on you!

You could easily have gotten 1/2 gallon of trub, maybe more.

Any idea how much beer you will end up with? Did you squeeze your mash and hop bags?

:peace:
MS
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First BIAB...failure?

Post #3 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
Squeezed and drained for a considerable amount of time. It looks like I will be netting about 4 gallons total after it's all said and done.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

First BIAB...failure?

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
My beer, in primary, is extremely cloudy with a lot of trub on the bottom. I guess I was expecting a relatively clear beer using the bag method. Did I miss something somewhere or is this what I should be expecting? Thanks!!
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
BIAB produces clear beer, just give it time.

You are indicating twice as much trub than 'normal', but it can vary. About 0.65 gallons of trub (also known as *KFL - kettle to fermenter loss is normal for a five gallon batch.

As a matter of interest, what did you use as a bag?

*KFL is a term used in the BIABacus
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by 2trout
Phytenphyre,

Don't fret. I think that your beer will be fine. I do have some suggestions, and ask away 'cause you will get relevant answers here. Also, check out the Commentary http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=190its a detailed guide.

1. Move into the BIABacus for your brewing software. You can download it here.http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1869

This is an awesome brewing program. It does many things that other programs do not do. Play around with it and ask questions. It can be set up for your specific equipment.

2. There are some things that can effect you strike temp like if your burner has lots of heavy steel, it will hold and transfer lots of additional heat after you shut off the gas. Also, as you found out, the accuracy of your thermometer comes into play, as does, I think, just how you added the grain to the water. When adding heat when mashing, be sure to stir and check temps often.

3.
(Oh, I am using a 10 gallon SS pot. I had 12.5 lbs of grains, 11oz of hops, brewing a 5 gallon batch. We mashed in 8 gallons of water because we didn't think the 9 gallons + 12.5 lbs of grain would fit into my pot. We were just about to the brim of the pot with the 8 gallons and 12.5 lbs of grain.)
BIABacus will give you a warning when you are nearing the max capacity of your pot.

4.
We were using 3 different thermometers and all 3 had different readings.
Ongoing problem with thermometers. There are lots of ideas out there on how to check your thermometer. (I did what you did, pick one and stick with it!)

5.
I did a 90 minute mash instead of the 60 the recipe called from b/c of the messed up temps right off the start.
Yes! Do a 90 min mash. There is noreason not to.

6.
NOW the biggest problem I am facing - I have 1 full gallon of trub sitting on the bottom of my primary. Where in the world did it all come from ???? I looked at the bag and there is not obvious hole where the grains could have fallen out. I used a hop spider for all of my hops and there is no hole in it either.
Trube is part of the all grain process, and I don't think that this is a big problem. There are many ways to limit/exclude trube into your fermenter, but you need to decide how important it is to you! Many here don't believe that there is much factual evidence of the "off" flavors the trube is believed to produced. Don't worry. :smoke: If you are really concerned, rack(siphon) the wort off of the trube into a secondary fermenter after 5-7 days. I would not expect your beer to be particularly clear during the fermentation process, and there are simple and cheap ways to clear your beer before you bottle/keg.

Lastly one brew really tells you little about your brewing system, and the process. Take somem time and read up on this site and ask lots of questions. We are here to help!

Trout
Last edited by 2trout on 10 Dec 2013, 06:53, edited 2 times in total.
"All I know is that the beer is good and people clamor for it. OK, it's free and that has something to do with it."
Bobbrews
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
FightingFire :),

Welcome to the forum :peace:. I reckon the fish and the scientist have given excellent advice so take some time to take all that on board as nearly all of it is important - eg, a 90 minute mash is really what you want in BIAB as BIAB, the way it is meant to be done not only involves a mashing but a 'passive' sparge as well. Traditional brewing can't get all the 'sugar' out in just 60 minutes (it needs the sparge/s to follow) and neither can BIAB do it in just 60 minutes.

(Also note we recommend a 90 minute boil here. 60 minute boils are fine for extract brews but for the highest quality, as far as we currently know, 90 mins is what we should do in all-grain.)

The only thing I think I can offer here is that I have noticed that some larger retailers are selling some bags as BIAB bags but they are actually way too coarse. If by some miracle, you have a magnifying glass and can count the threads per cm on your bag material, then let us know what it is. Maybe a phone camera with a ruler would allow you to do the same thing?

The fish and the scientist will be able to let you know the right thread count.

...

I just remembered one more thing. Your strike temperature was way too high. As the guys said above, use the BIABacus. This site started out contributing to and supporting the development of existing software but found it all very difficult to drive for new users, almost impossible to explain and, even if you could drive and understand it, the software had a lot of important numerical errors.

Just use this site to help you out before your next brew. You'll also learn a lot from this brew. I'm pretty sure that it will taste great and this will teach you how forgiving all-grain is and how you don't need to get too caught up worrying about every single thing.

Grab a beer and have a read of this post. It will give you a laugh but it also has a good lesson.

:)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Dec 2013, 19:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sorry to do consecutive posts but something was really nagging me about this thread and I just remembered what it was...

Phyte, you may have also crushed too fine. On every other brewing site you'll read about how with BIAB you can crush as fine as you like. That advice is just completely wrong. See here.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Dec 2013, 21:04, edited 2 times in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #9 made 12 years ago
by Rick
Good to know. I had too many unbroken hulls, and had to double crush the first of the two identical batches I brewed on Sat. The second crush on the same setting looked a bit floury to me, no matter what spacing I used. I tracked the batch, and OG was actually .001 lower than the more coarsely ground batch. Just a single data point that's too close to mean anything, but I did find that interesting. Evaporation rates and VAW's were also exactly the same, although I did extend the boil on the finer ground by 7 minutes just to make this so.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
Wow, great info already!! Thank you all for your input. I'll try to answer all of your comments/questions below.

1. The bag was purchased at my homebrew store. I have no idea on how coarse or fine the bag should be.
2. My primary is labeled so I could see after everything settled out, I had 1 gallon of trub. I will be racking to my secondary in a week or so and will be adding quite a bit more dry hops.
3. I stirred quite a bit during the whole mash trying to keep the temperature regulation steady (I'm guessing this was not a wise decision)
4. The grain crush was done at the homebrew store and out of my control, I couldn't tell you anything about it

Thanks again for all of your help, I am now more excited about doing another BIAB batch!!

Cheers!
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #11 made 12 years ago
by Rick
I ferment in buckets, so I don't have any anecdotes to draw from as to how trub settles over time. But, it's my understanding that trub will compact over time. It has only been 2 days for you. I've noticed some ferment for 3+ weeks just to reduce trub and to clear the beer a little more. Others prefer the younger taste of a shorter primary, but I haven't been brewing long enough to experiment the differences.

I usually rack to secondary within 5 or 6 days for an IPA, which is due to a combination of my adopted dry hopping technique, and general impatience. Ask yourself, do you even need a secondary? Answer yourself honestly, and proceed. There is no wrong answer as long as you justify it after proper considerations.

I do end up with 1G of trub for a bigger IPA this way, but I also do not pay close attention to trub management when filling the fermenter. I get the hops out, squeeze them .. everything else that can make it through my voile bag goes into primary.

My point, a longer primary and care toward trub management are something to look into if this continues to occupy your mind.

Personally, I'd rather keep brew days simpler, and learn by changing variables I can learn more from until I am ready to tackle that aspect of brewing. YMMV.
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
My secondary is used for clarifying as well as dry hopping. I am a new brewer so if there is a reason not to rack to a secondary, I am all ears.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #13 made 12 years ago
by Rick
phytenphyre wrote:My secondary is used for clarifying as well as dry hopping. I am a new brewer so if there is a reason not to rack to a secondary, I am all ears.
IMO, I think you need a reason to rack to secondary instead of defaulting to it, because both clarifying and dry hopping can be performed in primary.

Racking to secondary gives another opportunity for infection. Some argue that the beer is also exposed to more oxygen this way, while others say it rouses CO2 within the beer .. which quickly produces a protective blanket over the beer after racking to secondary. Personally, I have not seen any bubbling from my secondary, but others seem to immediately. My guess is glass carboys would show bubbling before my plastic better bottle, which has some room to flex outward before bubbles start to release.

There is also potential for empty head space to consider for secondary. Perhaps not for an IPA .. since secondary time will be relatively short. Many recommend minimal head space, to reduce risk of oxygenation. It takes a few brews to dial yourself in to where you can control the volume into secondary. I believe it was thughes that recommended a workaround for this, by adding sanitized marbles to bring the level up. We were talking about a sour beer, though ... which requires a lengthy secondary. Context really matters as to whether this is important or not, but it deserves a mention I think.

My justification lies within these two links. This is my current method of dry hopping until I talk myself into experimenting with more common techniques in primary only.

I am pretty floored by the results, and I really don't want to change much due to the excellent beer I am somehow ending up with. It's hard for me to let go of what is working for me, even though conventional wisdom says easier ways work just as well.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/multi-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ost4785573
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/dry-hop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... post668593
Last edited by Rick on 11 Dec 2013, 01:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
Very interesting, Rick. Thanks for the read. I'll see what I come up with when I take a look at how things are progressing tonight.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

First BIAB...failure?

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by phytenphyre
I just racked into my secondary today and it smells awesome. ~ 1.014. I added 4oz of dry hops. It tasted good, as good as a green flat beer can taste. I'm excited to see what happen in two weeks when it's finished.

I am also going to be brewing my 2nd BIAB batch on Saturday with my new DIY custom bag!! : )

Thanks to everyone for your help,
Kyle

Image
Last edited by phytenphyre on 19 Dec 2013, 07:16, edited 2 times in total.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews
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