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scaling a hop bill based on AA% is flawed, but......

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by mally
It is the only way we are able to do it!

Copying a hop bill from a recipe, and scaling it to suit your equipment and ingredients will have consequences if they are not identical.
This is less problematic in beers that do not rely on flavour and aroma of hops.

As an example; I am planning to do Hashie's "Old Speckled Hen" next. The late hops in the original recipe are about half the AA% of mine, which means I need to use about half as much hop additions, but what will happen to the flavour and aroma? This must surely be sacrificed in order to keep the bitterness the same.

I guess it depends which you value most; bitterness level, or flavour & aroma level :think:
Last edited by mally on 21 Nov 2013, 21:14, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #2 made 12 years ago
by Nuff
mally wrote:It is the only way we are able to do it!

Copying a hop bill from a recipe, and scaling it to suit your equipment and ingredients will have consequences if they are not identical.
This is less problematic in beers that do not rely on flavour and aroma of hops.

As an example; I am planning to do Hashie's "Old Speckled Hen" next. The late hops in the original recipe are about half the AA% of mine, which means I need to use about half as much hop additions, but what will happen to the flavour and aroma? This must surely be sacrificed in order to keep the bitterness the same.

I guess it depends which you value most; bitterness level, or flavour & aroma level :think:
mally, this site has gone to extensive lengths to draw attention to the point that you are saying above.

The major point is that in late addition hops, you must specify, in a recipe report, how you will deal with them. Why? Because all existing formulas say that any hop additions after flame-out do not contribute to bitterness but any experienced brewer knows that this is incorrect.

It has been noticed that in the last Beersmith blog this issue has been mentioned and will be addressed in the next update. Whilst we find this great, we do wonder where their numbers will be coming from as no efforts have been made to gather a collection of numbers like we do here on BIABrewer.info.

With a little luck they will be good. Whatever they are, they will be a lot better than the current system of zero minutes equalling zero IBU's.

Nuff said :roll:.
Last edited by Nuff on 21 Nov 2013, 22:23, edited 2 times in total.

Post #3 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Nuff been on the sauce again? :lol:. (Nuff you've had enough!!!)

I think he is saying how dodgy this area of hop formulas is but you already know this and your question is still unanswered. The situation you are in where the AA% is massively different from the original hops is really hard to deal with. I certainly don't have a good answer. (I'd probably meet half way or something.)

What I'd do is send joshua a PM. I think he might be the one that might be able to give you the best answer on this one.

:scratch: :think: :?
PP
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by mally
Cheers PP;

Nuff has some good points, but you have interpreted my thread a little better.
I was hoping that someone had been in this territory before and knew the best way forward.

I didn't want to bother Joshua on his sabbatical, but maybe it is the best way :think:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, the Late Hopping style does add bitterness until the Wort temperature drops to around 68C.

The utilizations is "Guessed To Be" about 27-29, this is because at Flame-out, the Bitterness is as stong as Boiling and slowly drops off until 68C when it is Zero.

The Equations should be close with these numbers.

It also helps to stir the Hops now and then during the Cooling

I still have to test the Flavor amount due to there is NO data on flavor extraction.

I have found adding "Dry Hopping" after the temperature of the wort is below 50C is best.

You can pull the hop bag for Bitterness after the programmed time, or Taste is set, and add the Aroma Hops later.

This is the best Information I have found on Late Hopping/Hop Brusting.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by mally
Thanks Joshua :salute:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
joshua wrote:I have found adding "Dry Hopping" after the temperature of the wort is below 50C is best.
Good to see you stop being lazy Josh :).

When you say "is best" above, can you let us know what this is best for? In other words, is it best for aroma only and no bitterness or best for flavour and aroma or...?

You get what I mean ;).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Nov 2013, 19:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by joshua
PP, Below the 50C temperature I found there is little to No, Bitterness addition.

The Flavor Addition below 50C, is also nearly Zero.

So, the best temperature for Aroma is between 50C and Fermentation temperatures and the time needed seems to be almost a day, at room temperatures to get a Good "Nose".
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good on you /thanks Josh ;)

I was sold some hops labelled as Amarillo over the last year and went crazy when my favourite brews tasted like crap. Lukasfab bought some real amarillo over here a few months ago and we could all smell the difference. Anyway that left me with two brews, an APA and an IPA I had to try and fix. I've never drunk so much in my life!!!

I had hop teas and hop vodkas going at all different temperatures, syringes squirting 4 to 8 mls in 250 mls of beer. What a joke! The hop teas were bloody awful but I know some great brewers who swear by them (I was swearing as well mind you :think:). Bob's hop vodka worked much better than the hop teas. But the best thing of all was dry hopping in the keg (with Citra) suggested to me by lukasfab.

I think that this dry hopping did affect flavour as well as aroma but maybe my taste buds just follow my nose?

:scratch:
PP
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by joshua
PP, if the Hops get any alcohol on them, the Flavor does wash out...which is another experiment for Hop Uses....."Late in the Secondary"
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
I wonder what the pro's do ?
They brew the same beers year after year and the hops AA% will be different with each batch. Does the aroma content change to the same extent. I suppose the big boys have there labs and can analyse there hops to a minute level so will have a better idea.

There must be a similar thing going on with other beverages, whiskey is blended to be consistent as well as tea.

I think at our level the best we can do is follow Joshua's lead and cool before adding aroma hops. At the end of the day the we can only hope to be close to the original. To be spot on is near impossible.

Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Yeasty, on my trips to "Pro" Brewers, I see they make 4-5 Kettles of the same Beer, and then mix the kettles.

Once, they told me the hops can be different between the batches, and the Bitterness/Flavor is different between the Batches, so the "Mix" is made to get the Bitterness / Flavor / Aroma the way they want, and they dump the remaining wort.

So if you what you can Split the Batch after the Boil, and Late Hop the Split batches diferently, and Mix a "good" Beer....or a really crappy beer.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by mally
There is some really interesting thoughts there guys, thanks.

I think for my specific situation what I may end up doing is not changing the weight of hops for late additions. Basically ignoring the scaling e.g.
20g @ 15 mins (3.8% AA) gives 3.4 IBU
15g @ 5 mins (3.8% AA) gives 1.0 IBU
I think I would prefer the flavour and aroma over a 4-5 IBU increased bitterness (mine are 6.5% AA).

Would it be possible to detect a beer at 39 IBU and another at 44 IBU? I suspect not.
Maybe I am just fortunate with this recipe/style of beer as I guess you couldn't apply this to every beer/scenario.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #14 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day Mally, the Bitterness is difficult to detect.

But, Sweetness is is easy for us to find, and that is the idea for beer "bitterness", to balance the sweetness.

So, the 39 IBU may be the same to Sweetness and 44 IBU.

I cannot Determine bitteress anymore, only if it needs more or less hop additions or Time
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Post #15 made 12 years ago
by laserghost
apparently you get different "types" of bitterness with different additions. first wort and late additions adding "softer" bitterness than a 90 or 60 or 45. i've been ignoring the AA% when scaling a recipe for anything under 10 minutes and just using the stated amount for a given batch size into fermentor. if you're putting 6 gal into the fermentor and the recipe says 2 oz of X AA% hop at flameout, then I use 2 oz regardless of AA%. the difference in bitterness would be pretty "soft" ... yeah?
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
by joshua
LaserGhost, You are Correct,FWH and Post Boil Hopping do give a smooth/Softer Bittnerness and a bit more Aroma/Flavor addition, than was tought before.

A 10 Minute Addition will give about a 20 minute Hard Bitterness addition, and a Soft Bitterness addition for any time after that, until the Tempeature drops below 154F.

It seems Post Boil Additions have a 20-25% Bitterness utilization(a new data update).
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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