Welcome to the forum S&L ,

It' very rare to find recipes with that much detail on the flame-out hops. Good to see. And your questions are good. There are many ways that homebrewers can manage their chilling (and therefore hops) post-boil but most recipe reports do not have anywhere for the brewer to convey this information. We started exploring this a bit in this threadages ago.

Your hops though do stay in the kettle after flame-out. You can put them in a hop-sock and remove the sock a few minutes after the boil ends but this probably makes no difference as the oils form the hops, if using pellets, are released almost immediately anyway. The hops do not go into the fermentor. They are left behind in the kettle as part of what is called kettle trub when you transfer from your kettle to fermentor. Some recipes do add hops to the fermentor or even keg. This is called dry hopping.

This chilling management area is very under-researched so we probably won't have too many 'hard' answers for you. I brew double batches in my kettles now and I drain the first half of wort off an no-chill it. The second half I immersion chill and this would start at a little less than 10 mins after flame-out. I am not noticing a big difference or any difference on the beers and am brewing lagers through to IPA's. I'm pretty fussy as well.

I also did a side by side of a beer and pitched them within a day of each other. About five or six of us tasted them on a triangle test and none of us came up with anything significant.

So, in summary, don't stress about it would be my advice for the moment.

I saw in your first post that you have played with the BIABacus. If you want to put one or both of these recipes into the BIABacus and have someone check them for you, you can post the files in this thread but...

You'll probably need a hand with those recipes as they lack AA% of the hops used and "Brew Length" isn't defined either. We'll be able to come up with a pretty good guess though that will get you in the ballpark.

All the best,
PP

I'm actually playing around with this right now, but haven't yet gotten started.

Great questions as PP said, and I think a smart way to go about answering yourself is to do a little bit of reading to determine what might work for you. Of course, style considerations should be made as well, just so you don't make an obvious error that might not jibe with the style beer you are intending to get.

Here is some reading that I think might be helpful to you.

This offers additional information on three popular hop stand temp ranges that you can go by, if you so choose.
http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, download the .pdf on this page titled Late Hops: The Secret to Hop Aroma and Flavor

There is some information in there on how aforementioned late hopping techniques translate to the finished product. Also, it might present some more options that you might not have read about. e.g. adding hops after chilling .. or simply reducing temperature slightly.

I think once you develop an opinion on what you might prefer, and if it does not conflict too much with the beer style .. you'll have yourself a solution in no time.

I just messed with the Jaipur IPA as best I could. I used the AA% from a recent brew that I did, the recipe really should have provided this information though, so it's hard to trust. Anyway, I went ahead and got this ...


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3 RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Jaipur[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer:
Style: IPA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.055
IBU's (Tinseth): 88.8
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 1.61 (<--That's pretty far over typical IPA BU:GU)
Colour: 7.6 EBC = 3.8 SRM
ABV%: 5.82

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 81.7 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 70 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment:

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 36.4 L = 9.62 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 33.88 L = 8.95 G @ 1.045
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 26.83 L = 7.09 G @ 1.055
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 23 L = 6.08 G @ 1.055
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.3 L = 5.63 G @ 1.01 assuming apparent attenuation of 82 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

96.6% pale malt (4 EBC = 2 SRM) 5892 grams = 12.99 pounds
3.4% vienna (7.5 EBC = 3.8 SRM) 208 grams = 0.46 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

4.9 IBU Amarillo Pellets (8.7%AA) 6 grams = 0.212 ounces at 75 mins
11.5 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.7%AA) 14 grams = 0.494 ounces at 75 mins
9.1 IBU Chinook Pellets (12.1%AA) 8 grams = 0.282 ounces at 75 mins
4.3 IBU Amarillo Pellets (8.7%AA) 6 grams = 0.212 ounces at 45 mins
9.4 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.7%AA) 13 grams = 0.459 ounces at 45 mins
5.1 IBU Chinook Pellets (8.7%AA) 7 grams = 0.247 ounces at 45 mins
24.7 IBU Amarillo Pellets (8.7%AA) 75 grams = 2.645 ounces at 12 mins (ran out of space, so I combined centennial since they are about the same AA%)
19.7 IBU Chinook Pellets (12.1%AA) 43 grams = 1.517 ounces at 12 mins

* Note, the 12 min value would reflect steeping and hop bitterness contribution @ above isomerization temps.
Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Water Held Back from Mash: 3.8 L = 1 G

Water Used in a Sparge: 3.8 L = 1 G
Mashout for for 1 mins at 78 C = 172.4 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 30 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

Maxi-BIAB Adjustments

Water Held Back from Mash: 3.8 L = 1 G
Water Used in a Sparge: 3.8 L = 1 G

If you remove the 12min hop stand adjustment, IBU's decrease to about 45 .. which drops it below typical IPA Bitterness/Gravity ratio. 1.6 is above, and bold to shoot for, in my humble opinion.

If you only steeped the Amarillo and Centennial for 30 mins for bittering, and saved the chinook for after chilling you would be near 1.1 bitterness:gravity. That's about spot on for an IPA. Lots of variables here, eh? The final decision is up to you.

Also, the BIABacus seems to think you need more grains to hit the proper OG. I'm inclined to trust it over this suspect recipe.

SteveAndLesley wrote:Thanks PP and Rick.
I am a bit confused about "Brew Length".... how is this different from Mash Time or Boil Time ?

"brew length" can mean a number of different things depending on the program or recipe designer. Usually it refers to the size of the batch, but that can mean before boil, after boil, into packaging, any number of things. It is a very confusing term to say the least and ranks up there with brewhouse efficiency as far as useless terms go.

In order to get more freedom to tweak, use the IBU field instead of the VAW in Sec. D. That's all I did differently, I felt it was a must since I did not have any AA% information.

I just play with that number until the left side matches the right side in the hop section.

As for your strategy to save chinook for after chill/temp reduction, you may want to ask yourself if their 55IBU number took the hop stand into account at all. They very well could have brewed an 88 IBU beer without taking hop stand bittering into consideration. We'll never know, and it kinda leaves you hanging as to what strategy to adopt to recreate it. 1.6 BU:GU is super high, but I've had 1.3 BU:GU IPA's that I thought were fantastic (Green Flash's West Coast IPA being one).

Anything you do will likely produce great beer, so I wouldn't even stress it too much.

My first BIAB IPA used a bittering hop stand, and my BU:GU was 1.0. It was fantastic, and being the hop head that I am I could have used more. My most recent brew is an Imperial Black IPA that's over 1.3 BU:GU, and so far is pretty impressive from what I can tell in a flat state. It's carbonating as we speak.

If I had a 1.6 IPA before, I didn't know it. I may push the limits one day, but I dunno about 1.6, it could be awesome .. it could be too much. Perhaps some of the other more experienced folks on here could help with that.

[Rick, very nice work mate . Feel free to post your BIABacus files in this thread btw. I am going to write two posts here, one for beginners and one for intermediate/advanced BIABacus users. I'll come back to your stuff in the Intermediate/Advanced post.]

[center]Some Notes to Beginners[/center]

S&L, another thread I should have mentioned in my last post here is the Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it? thread but there is a limit to how much info to convey in one thread, even for me - lol. That thread shows the reasons why most recipes you find on the net do not have the critical info needed to be copied correctly.

The recipes you are trying to copy have quite a few critical info omissions in them. They are impossible to copy correctly although intermediate and advanced users can use the BIABacus to help them make some pretty good guesses.

I know that this site aims to have a high integrity recipe section in the new structure but that it is not available to you yet so what you should do?

Ask here for a High Integrity Recipe.

If you want to brew an IPA, ask someone here for a recipe. I've never seen anyone offer a crap recipe here.

Be Alert.

If you are keen on understanding numbers then the first thing to realise is that most brewers don't so you need to be alert to the fact that nearly all recipes you stumble across are nearly always faulted numbers-wise.

Don't Be Alarmed.

At the end of the day, a lot of recipes are going to work no matter how much you abuse them or mis-interpret them. For example, that Bombay IPA recipe has the right grain (not sure what 3.4% Vienna does though?) and the right hops for an IPA. Even if you use 20% more hops or 20% less hops thatn the original brewer did and at different times,you are still going to get a very nice beer.

Be Educated.

The important thing for you to realise is that if you go ahead and brew this beer is that you know that it could be quite different from the original brewers. In other words, you realise that it is impossibly to copy a recipe well unless you have certain critical information.

It is not an over-statement to say that this is the only brewing site in the world that exists where you will get educated in this area of correct recipe duplication.

It will be nice when the new site structure is in place and the learning of all this will be much easier.

In Summary

Don't stress over the numbers at this stage. Re-read the 'Don't be Alarmed' section above. You have a lot of room to move on this recipe.


PP

P.S. It goes without saying that at this stage of proceedings, it is very unimportant for you to understand my Intermediate/Advanced post which will follow.

[EDIT: Replies to the this post should be made in this thread.]

[center]Notes for Intermediate/Advanced Brewers or BIABacus Users[/center]
Rick, as mentioned, very nice use of the BIABacus in getting around the lack of info in the Bombay IPA recipe . I started writing the below as though I was talking to S&L but most of the stuff below is intermediate or advanced.

S&L, ploease ignore the below. Rick and others, I'll try and do some edits below so it flows a bit better. Hope it reads okay for you...

[center]The Original Grain Bill[/center]
All we really need for a grain bill is the quantities or percentages of grains used and the original gravity. Simple and we have those. (No idea on how 3.4% of Vienna would make any difference though taste-wise?) Anyway, back to the numbers...

Using the BIABacus to Detect Critical Info or Errors

The BIABacus is set up in a way where you can do some pretty fast detective work on a recipe. For example, the original recipe talks of a 'mash efficiency' of 75% and a 'Brew Length' of 23 L. In Section B you have a desired VIF of 23 L. Let's lave that as is but, in Section X, if I force the Kettle Efficiency to 75%, the Grain Bill I need shows 6321 grams which is significantly more than the original recipe but...

...If I now also, in Section X, set the KFL to zero litres (this effectively forces VIF in Section B to actually equal VAW), the grain bill drops to 5695 grams.

So, while we still can't get the numbers matching the original recipe, one thing is for certain, the original brewer, by brew length, certainly does not mean VIP or VIF.

At best, the brewer means VAW (still a 9% discrepancy) or maybe even VFO (a 3.5% discrepancy).

What I wanted to try and find from the grain bill...

What I was hoping in doing the above (which only takes a few seconds to do in the BIABacus but a while to write ) was some idea on what volumes the original brewer meant. This may have helped us to discover the VAW which is the critical volume figure in the hop bill.

(Very advanced - Another way of finding the VAW, if the original recipe had given grain colour and a total SRM would have been to set KFL to zero and alter VIF in Section B until the colour matched.)

Anyway, did we learn anything above? The only thing we learned was that the recipe integrity level is not looking that great from a numbers point of view.

[center]The Hop Bill[/center]
Despite the author doing such a nice job on describing what he doe with his post-boil hops (it's a little bit ambiguous but I've never seen a recipe give this any attention), pretty much all the other critical info needed to copy his recipe is lacking. We have no VAW, we have no AA% and we have no total IBU's (not that the latter helps much but we'll leave that for now).

Several Different Approaches

Rick has made one great approach to covering for this lack of info. He has worked on a Bitterness to Gravity Ratio (he's called it BU:GU which means bitterness units to gravity units)) that you can see on the fourth line of Section A.

The only thing to be careful of here is where you base your ratio from. Ratios can be used well or become a gimmick. It is important not to allow them to disguise the real truth. Many styles have a lot of flexibilty. (And, many programs will give you an incorrect ratio as there basic formulas are incorrect or ). Also, a program will give you wildly varying ratios if you choose Rager or Garetz over Tinseth.

I really am impressed how Rick has approached this recipe. It shows a very high level of understanding of the limitations of recipe reports and the BIABacus. But the 'ratio' approach can also fast turn out to be very ambiguous as well.

...

Another approach would be to look up the BJCP style guidelines for this style and then type in an appropriate desired IBU's into the second line of Section D.

...

A third approach would be to type in 22.11 on the first line of Section D as 23 L at flame-out equals 22.11 VAW.

[center]At the End of the Day[/center]

Rick, thanks so much for taking the time here to help S&L out in such detail. I hope you are enjoying doing that. There are a few other guys here that do the same on this numbers side and they will also really appreciate your interest and efforts here.

For those of us who are aware of how numbers can help or hinder a brewer, it is always really hard to convey the right balance. I can't wait for the new site structure as it will help us all. For example, we won't have to struggle interpreting recipes that don't add up.

I think my 'Some Notes to Beginners' post above shows some of the difficulty we are having in getting the new site structure up and providing balance. Conveying the two very important messages of, "Worry about numbers," and "Don't worry about numbers," in the correct manner and simultaneously so that they hybridise each other is a struggle.

Not sure if that even makes sense to anyone else . I think it would though to some of you. If so, send me a PM as we don't want to clog up this thread any more. On numbers stuff, I have just added an edit to the beginning of the post. In other words, reply in the Advanced BIABacus Pre-Release Questions thread .


PP