Ph range in BIAB mash


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Ph range in BIAB mash

Post by nik » 6 years ago

Has anyone test the Ph range of mash ?
How does the liquid to grist ratio affect the mash compared with traditional liquid to grist ratios ?


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Post by BrickBrewHaus » 6 years ago

This is certainly a complex topic and one that takes some serious water chemistry chops to answer in any kind of detail. Most literature deals with the "normal" liquid:grist ratio so my opinion is that the best way to figure this out is to have your own pH meter. Even if someone is doing a "normal" mash, if they are remotely concerned with pH, then having a meter is probably the only way to go. There are so many variables that go into determining the mash pH, that giving a "range" just isn't practical.

But to answer your second question, having a higher l:g ratio will increase the buffering capacity of your mash. IOW, if you were to add a certain amount of acid to a "normal" mash and to a BIAB mash, the pH drop associated with the "normal" mash would be higher than the pH drop of the BIAB mash. Braukeiser has a nice explanation here.

Sorry I can't explain further. I don't have the expertise to speak intelligently on the topic (so I don't want to spread false information) and I don't have any experience in controlling the water chemistry (would like to one day, but not yet).
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 31 Jan 2011, 23:12, edited 5 times in total.


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Post by nik » 6 years ago

I am planning for my next brew to use some water treatment and I will measure Ph as well .I was just wondered if someone had tested it just to be prepared what I am gonna deal with.


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Post by BrickBrewHaus » 6 years ago

I should ask...Are you doing acid additions or are you adding salts? If you have a meter or strips, then the link I gave should be a decent starting point especially for acid malt additions. If I were doing it, I would just use it as a "starting point" and not take his word as gold. The good thing is that you have a way of testing pH so any changes can be monitored by you and accounted for the next time you brew.

Keep us posted because this is something that I'm interested in, just haven't bought a meter yet.


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Post by nik » 6 years ago

I plan to brew a Belgian Blonde so because of the large amount of pilsner malt resulting a very pale color(8 EBC) I need softer water than I use .They are two ways to get rid excessive alkalinity one is to boil your water for 30 minutes then transfer to clean vessel clean your brewing pot to get rid the sediment and again transfer your water to brewing vessel to start mashing .This have some advantages you dont need any special treatment you have already hot water for mashing but you can't remove enough amount of alkalinity to brew such a pale beer is good although for all darker styles including pale ales, the remaining alkalinity as CaCo3 is about 50 ppm also you loose about 40ppm calcium which had to be replaced with a amount of gypsum.
The other solution is to use acids, I plan to use an acid blend as described here ... http://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm called CRS this can remove virtually as alkalinity you want hassle free and without unwanted flavors odors if used precisely in comparison with lactic acid also doesnt remove Ca but adds sulfate and chloride I think . More info here ... http://www.craftbrewing.org.uk/bc/facts ... _Water.pdf and ther also an excel file for calculating amounts here http://www.craftbrewing.org.uk/technica ... atment.xls
I will use the CRS solution after that when I dough in the grain I will take a Ph measurement via a Ph strip and if I am close to desired range 5.2-5.4 I will not add any salts if not I will add some to bring it to the right level.
I will keep you informed.

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Post by wizard78 » 6 years ago

Big bump of an old thread!
I was just wondering if anyone was testing water ph with a meter. I was aware that the ph for biab would be higher as stated in a previous post.
I got myself a ph meter recently and finally got to use it on sunday. I measured my ph at 5.8 which was around .4 above the estimate on the EZ water calculator.
So, I was just wondering what anyone else was getting, maybe there might be an average so that when you put your figures into the EZ water calculator, you can just add .4 (for example) to the estimate, then adjust acids to suit.
Hopefully someone or lots of someones can post what they get for there mash ph and we can have a rule of thumb to work with.
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Post by BrickBrewHaus » 6 years ago

wizard78 wrote:Big bump of an old thread!
I was just wondering if anyone was testing water ph with a meter. I was aware that the ph for biab would be higher as stated in a previous post.
I got myself a ph meter recently and finally got to use it on sunday. I measured my ph at 5.8 which was around .4 above the estimate on the EZ water calculator.
So, I was just wondering what anyone else was getting, maybe there might be an average so that when you put your figures into the EZ water calculator, you can just add .4 (for example) to the estimate, then adjust acids to suit.
Hopefully someone or lots of someones can post what they get for there mash ph and we can have a rule of thumb to work with.
Cheers wiz :thumbs:
Color me interested as well. I don't have a meter or strips, but I'd like to get a meter soon.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 06 Jul 2011, 22:30, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by ianh » 6 years ago

wizard78 wrote:Big bump of an old thread!
I was just wondering if anyone was testing water ph with a meter. I was aware that the ph for biab would be higher as stated in a previous post.
I got myself a ph meter recently and finally got to use it on sunday. I measured my ph at 5.8 which was around .4 above the estimate on the EZ water calculator.
So, I was just wondering what anyone else was getting, maybe there might be an average so that when you put your figures into the EZ water calculator, you can just add .4 (for example) to the estimate, then adjust acids to suit.
Hopefully someone or lots of someones can post what they get for there mash ph and we can have a rule of thumb to work with.
Cheers wiz :thumbs:
I have being using a pH meter for my last few brews and tend to measure a pH of 5.4 to 5.5 for the mash which is about 0.2 above what the ez water calculator suggests. My water is fairly soft so I generally add 5 grams of Calcium Chloride and some Magnesium Sulphate to get the required chloride/sulphate ratio.

I tend to brew Irish Reds and Northern English Brown Ales so bit of crystal in there, if brewing say a bitter I add 100 grams acidulated malt to the grain list. My brews are 23litres into fermenter.

Should get some Calcium Sulphate along with other goodies in the mail tomorrow, then I can check that out.

Ian
Last edited by ianh on 07 Jul 2011, 10:33, edited 5 times in total.


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Post by BrickBrewHaus » 6 years ago

I wonder how well these water calculators take into account the added buffering capacity of a higher liquor:grain ratio? Seems like, from the two data points given above, not that well. Still interested in hearing from others and eventually using my own meter.


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Post by Hippy » 6 years ago

I have a pH meter but haven't used it for ages. Last time I did was on an APA and the pH was about 5.5

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Post by wizard78 » 6 years ago

Ianh and hippy do your meters have ATC? Or have you manualy calculated for temp?
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Post by EoinMag » 6 years ago

I have a pH meter, but I concentrate on KH testing and Ca testing and then treatment using the aforementioned CRS (Carbonate Reducing Solution) and I add some DLS ( Dry Liquor Salts) also from Brupaks which gets my Calcium to the right level. I then trust that the mash pH will swing into line and don't bother to test pH at all. I do an iodine test during mashing too, so that's an extra layer of security and if I found the conversion was not happening then I would tend to maybe measure pH, but it's not happened yet. The faff of cooling mash liquor to pH testing temps is too much and I'm not bothered.
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Post by ianh » 6 years ago

wizard78 wrote:Ianh and hippy do your meters have ATC? Or have you manualy calculated for temp?
Has ATC and is similar to thishttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Waterproof-D ... 4cf855440c
Last edited by ianh on 08 Jul 2011, 05:25, edited 5 times in total.


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Post by Hippy » 6 years ago

Sorry wizard, yeh manually adjust for temp. My advise to anyone forking out the bucks for a pH meter is make sure it's rated to slightly higher than mash temp as a lot of good pH meters are only rated to about 60 degrees C. Fine if your growing hops cousin but apita for brewing.


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Post by BDP » 3 years ago

Hi,

I've read that the optimum pH range for the mash is 5.2 - 5.6, measured at room temperature. I'm planning to use the pH paper that PistolPatch recommends (SEOH pH Duotest Analytical Indicator Paper Dispenser Roll of 5 Meters 3.5-6.8). I'll be measuring the pH shortly after dough-in, at whatever the sach rest temperature is. How will the higher-than-room temperature affect the pH reading in this case? Should I be shooting for a mash pH reading of 5.0 - 5.4?

Thanks,
BDP
Last edited by BDP on 07 Jul 2014, 07:13, edited 5 times in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

I think 5.4 is a good thing to shoot for but don't be worried if you miss it by a lot. Getting your pH right is generally an advanced thing so enjoy it rather than worry about it if that makes sense.

(If you get obsessive, you'd e worrying that some style might require this pH whilst another will require that pH but only if this and that occur while you spin around three times.)

The nice thing about BIAB (I'm assuming pure, full-volume mash BIAB) is that you can adjust the pH of the water in advance, before the gran goes in. The addition of the actual grain does not alter the pH that much (on my waters at least).

...

I have a standard way of dealing with my water here now but I do it with acidulated malt. I don't recommend that when starting out though. I'd be playing with things as simple as white vinegar initially to adjust my pH and do it before adding your grains. Maybe aim for 6.0 ph pre adding grains and see what that comes down to after adding grains.

As fir the temperature bit, if you have those strips, I don't think temp is a factor but experiment on that for me please. Dip some paper in the hot wort and some in a teaspoon of cooled wort a few times and see if there is any difference. If you have a pH meter it will probably be a different story. I have one and I reckon you can just make them read what you want to see - just like refractometers!

:sneak: ;)
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Post by Rick » 3 years ago

What I do is put a cast iron frying pan in the refrigerator for a few hours before I plan to take a reading. Pour the wort sample in that, and it's room temperature almost instantly.

My only issue with the strips, is that I'm colorblind .. and I have to text a picture to my friends to read it for me. :lol:

Target was 5.4, water was pre-treated using bru'n'water.

General consensus says "between 5.3 and 5.6". Are they lying to me??
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Post by BDP » 3 years ago

Hi Rick,

You probably supply your mates with beer, so I imagine that they would have little cause to lie to you :) . That reading looks pretty spot on to me. Very interesting that photo - thanks for posting that. Useful tip for bringing the wort down to room temp!

Cheers
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Post by BDP » 3 years ago

Hi PistolPatch,

Sorry for my late reply. I hijacked this post, so didn't get alerted to your and Rick's replies. Only checked the postings today since this thread didn't appear to garner much traffic.

As always, your response made for informative reading. I hear you about the pH being of secondary importance, after things like temperature, etc. I'm just really interested to see what effect the water adjustment will have on my beer, and I just can't help myself :interesting: . BTW, I ordered the pH paper via the Amazon banner link at top of page. Hopefully this type of support by us forum members goes a little way in helping to keep this great forum up and running.

I didn't know that one could adjust the water pH before adding the grain, so thanks for that tip. I also read somewhere that the paper pH readings can be way off, by as much as 0.3, but I've read other posts of yours where you've debunked this. So much misinformation abounds ...

I will post here again about my pH reading experience in a few weeks. We're having a heatwave here, and I'm struggling to keep my primary fermenter (Hoppiness is an IPA) at 19C. Have wrapped it in a towel, sitting in a bath of star san, with the occasional ice cube addition when the mercury soars. I need to wait a while for things to cool down some before I brew that Nutcastle :P

Cheers for now,
BDP


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Post by jhough » 3 years ago

BDP, please post your findings . Here in central FL, my water isn't that bad , but, I do mix my water with RO half and half. Curious as I have been thinking about water profiles but have been told ...If your beer tastes good then why mess with it.


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Post by BDP » 3 years ago

Hi jhough, I'll definitely post my findings, or at least a report back on my initial foray into the pH measurement domain. Still waiting for the pH paper to arrive in the mail (should be this week I'm told), but won't get to brewing for a few weeks yet. My water is very soft and low alkalinity, and while I'm not an experienced brewer, I'm interested in this aspect of the brewing process. I've found the 'Brun Water' (spreadsheet) calculator very useful and educational.

The collective wisdom from this forum highlights to me that there are many more important aspects of the brewing process that should take priority over water adjustment, unless of course there is a noticeable problem or taste issue with the water.

Cheers
:)


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Post by monkeyman » 3 years ago

I have messing about with water for about 6 months now. I use Brun water, brewers friend and EZ water to compare. I started by checking pH about 3 times during the mash but now I just check at the end. EZ water has always predicted higher than what I usually get and the other two are pretty close. Every batch is different. I use RO water. My darkest beers I add CaCl2,Gypsum and some pickling lime. Lighter beers I don't need the lime but sometimes have to add phosphoric acid. My pH comes in around 5.2 to 5.4. Beers have improved


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Post by monkeyman » 3 years ago

I am home now so I can add some specifics as examples of what I have found.
1) 12/28/13 Brewed an Amber from BCS
Added 1gram Gypsum and 1.7 grams of CaCl2 to 3.36 gallons of RO water. Bru'n Water predicted a pH of 5.5. I ended up with 5.32.

2) 1/12/14 Brewed a Scottish 80 Ale from BCS
Added 1.2 grams of Gypsum and 1.7 grams of CaCl2 to 3.45 gallons RO water. Shooting for pH of 5.5 ended up with 5.29

3) 1/27/14 Brewed the Sweet Stout from BCS
Added 0.6 grams of Gypsum, 1.0 grams of CaCl2 and 0.6 grams of pickling lime to 3.2 gallons of RO water. Forgot to write down the goal but ended up with a pH of 5.38

4) 3/9/14 Brewed a British Pale from BCS
Added 3.3 grams of Gypsum and 1.3 grams of CaCl2 to 3.3 gallons of RO water.
Bru'n water predicted 5.46
Brewer's Friend predicted 5.18
Actual 5.15

5) Brewed the NRB Amarillo Ale
Added 6.1 grams of Gypsum and 1.3 grams of CaCl2 to RO water (forgot to write down the amount but around 3.3 gallons)
Brun water predicted 5.35
Brewer's friend predicted 5.33
EZ water predicted 5.49
Actual 5.35

6) My recipe for sweet stout.
Added 1.1 grams of Gypsum, 1.1 grams of CaCl2 and 0.2 grams of lime to 3.22 gallons of RO water.
Brun water predicted 5.52
Brewer's Friend predicted 5.48
EZ water predicted 5.58
Actual 5.47

7) My version of a Amber
Added 1.7 grams of Gypsum and 1.6 grams of CaCl2
Bru'n Water predicted 5.45
Brewer's Friend predicted 5.35
Actual 5.37

8) My version of an American Wheat
Added 1.7 grams of Gypsum, 1.5 grams of CaCl2 and 10ml of 10% Phosphoric acid
Brun water and Brewer's friend predicted 5.37
Actual 5.45

I am using a newer pH meter from Hach and it has had problems. It read accurately for awhile ( including doing a 2 hour stability check) for a few months but it crapped out. Hach sent me cleaning solution which didn't work, then they sent me a new replacement sensor which worked for about 2 months. Then it started going haywire. They just sent me a whole new unit. Their customer service has been great ( no charge for 50 each of 4.01 and 7.0 buffer pillows, cleaning solution, replacement sensor and finally a whole new unit) and I'm hoping they have worked out some bugs with the new unit they sent me. I ran a stability check on it and it passed but haven't brewed with it yet. Regardless, I feel I have used it enough to have confidence in Bru'n Water and Brewer's Friend for predictions of mash pH. Also, regarding what temp to check your mash pH... read several things on other sites that said you are better off calibrating your meter at room temp (75 F) and then checking your mash pH at that same temp. Was told it would extend the life of the probe ( didn't work for mine but I think that mine is an outlier). I also found that full volume seems to be much simpler for doing all this stuff. I add my salts/lime/acid to the starting water and that's it. No fooling around with trying to lower sparge water and what not.


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Post by jhough » 3 years ago

monkeyman, been playing with Brewers Friend, and ezwater prior to start using them. I have not been able to brew since early June ,but , will be in the next week or so . I've been chatting with a gent at the water treatment plant here in Clearwater and he is going to give me a tour of the plant and get me hooked up with some pure (RO) water to test some water adjustments. Any advice will be GREATLY appreciated.
Joe


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Post by monkeyman » 3 years ago

jhough, I'd be happy to try and help but I am also a bit of a newb at water adjustments too. When you get a grain bill figured out and your water volumes let me know and I will put them in the calculators and see if we get the same values. I can also put the numbers in Bru'n water also as a third check. I brewed with the new meter 2 weeks ago and the meter worked great. It was a 3 FLoyds Zombie Dust clone recipe. Brewer's Friend predicted 5.31, Bru'n water predicted 5.35 and I ended up with 5.51. Not sure why it was so far off this time other than I am new. Still closer than I would have gotten on my own. Also, my taking only one sample at the end of the mash probably isn't best practice either but I am just trying to get close enough without stressing myself out too much.

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